Harmonica
01-17-2010, 02:20 AM
(Mods: My apologies if this is the wrong forum for this discussion. Please move as appropriate.)
On the Jan 15 Patch thread, there's a sub-discussion about Ball maps. This is a topic that's repeatedly come up both in- and out-of-game, and I think it deserves its own treatment -- independent of the (arguably irrelevant) changes in the last update.
While map size and relative "openness" are certainly important factors, I argue that the primary determinant of a map's appropriateness for Ball games is the number and variability of pathways accessible throughout the map.
On an excellent Ball map like Darkwar or some areas in Mayhem and Mayhem2, nearly every spot on the map offers more than one pathway to either goal; more than one route to fly through, pass the ball through, or defend. The regularly branching and merging of routes adds an element of decision-making, where one must consider both teams' positions in order to determine which route to pass through or to defend against. Additionally, the multiplicity of routes creates a multiplicity of shooting ranges: some safer routes only allow an open shot if you can get very close, while riskier routes can allow shots from far away.
On a decent Ball map like Snow, Labyrinth, or Maze, the number of pathways is reduced but the pathways themselves are large enough that each offers a bit of variability: in Darkwar and some sections of Mayhem and Mayhem2, a path can be completely shut down with one wall or remote mine, but there will be a multitude of alternative paths; in Snow, Labyrinth, and Maze it takes a lot more to shut down a path, but there are few alternative paths. Similarly, there are fewer opportunities to pass the ball from one pathway to another, but more opportunities to pass within the same pathway.
On a poor Ball map like Football, Woods, or the middle portion of LostCity, pathways are either scarce or missing. The skills of aiming passes and selecting effective-yet-unexpected routes towards the enemy goal just aren't relevant; and the result is often either TDM-style chaos with weak, unorchestrated passing and half-court shots (when the pathways are missing) or TBD-style choke defense with "death throws" instead of team passing (when the pathways are scarce).
So, that's my thesis: Ball map design should emphasize the variety and multitude of pathways, and it's more meaningful to discuss Ball maps' pathways and routes than their dimensions or openness.
I'm working on some Ball maps of my own, to test this out, but I'm slow and incompetent. =) This is only my opinion; what's yours?
TL;DR -- Maps which seem too small or too open are the result of inappropriate or absent pathway design. To improve the collection of Ball maps, we should focus on a variety of pathways, not on altering dimensions or obstacles alone.
On the Jan 15 Patch thread, there's a sub-discussion about Ball maps. This is a topic that's repeatedly come up both in- and out-of-game, and I think it deserves its own treatment -- independent of the (arguably irrelevant) changes in the last update.
While map size and relative "openness" are certainly important factors, I argue that the primary determinant of a map's appropriateness for Ball games is the number and variability of pathways accessible throughout the map.
On an excellent Ball map like Darkwar or some areas in Mayhem and Mayhem2, nearly every spot on the map offers more than one pathway to either goal; more than one route to fly through, pass the ball through, or defend. The regularly branching and merging of routes adds an element of decision-making, where one must consider both teams' positions in order to determine which route to pass through or to defend against. Additionally, the multiplicity of routes creates a multiplicity of shooting ranges: some safer routes only allow an open shot if you can get very close, while riskier routes can allow shots from far away.
On a decent Ball map like Snow, Labyrinth, or Maze, the number of pathways is reduced but the pathways themselves are large enough that each offers a bit of variability: in Darkwar and some sections of Mayhem and Mayhem2, a path can be completely shut down with one wall or remote mine, but there will be a multitude of alternative paths; in Snow, Labyrinth, and Maze it takes a lot more to shut down a path, but there are few alternative paths. Similarly, there are fewer opportunities to pass the ball from one pathway to another, but more opportunities to pass within the same pathway.
On a poor Ball map like Football, Woods, or the middle portion of LostCity, pathways are either scarce or missing. The skills of aiming passes and selecting effective-yet-unexpected routes towards the enemy goal just aren't relevant; and the result is often either TDM-style chaos with weak, unorchestrated passing and half-court shots (when the pathways are missing) or TBD-style choke defense with "death throws" instead of team passing (when the pathways are scarce).
So, that's my thesis: Ball map design should emphasize the variety and multitude of pathways, and it's more meaningful to discuss Ball maps' pathways and routes than their dimensions or openness.
I'm working on some Ball maps of my own, to test this out, but I'm slow and incompetent. =) This is only my opinion; what's yours?
TL;DR -- Maps which seem too small or too open are the result of inappropriate or absent pathway design. To improve the collection of Ball maps, we should focus on a variety of pathways, not on altering dimensions or obstacles alone.
tgleaf
01-17-2010, 04:55 AM
I agree with that, harm. If Maimer is still willing, take him up on his offer to design ball maps based on images that you send him. He's a pro and it would save you a lot of time versus trying to design them yourself.
And if Maimer reads this, where can we find screenshots/info about the 10 new 1dm maps mentioned in the patch? Forgive me if I missed a thread somewhere, but I did look.
Edit: Thanks for answering, Maimer (see below).
And if Maimer reads this, where can we find screenshots/info about the 10 new 1dm maps mentioned in the patch? Forgive me if I missed a thread somewhere, but I did look.
Edit: Thanks for answering, Maimer (see below).
Massi
01-17-2010, 05:09 AM
I never really thought about this but now that you say it it makes a lot of sense. Lost City is a Horrible ball map, maybe a fallout ball map?
EDIT: I'm taking my chances at making a ball map out of ffa_cube.
Thanks Stack :D
Well I'm getting there, I got some new ideas but it still is going to take a while.
So far to me its looking nice. I'm trying to go with the lots of tunnels but keep them smaller idea.
EDIT: I'm taking my chances at making a ball map out of ffa_cube.
Thanks Stack :D
Well I'm getting there, I got some new ideas but it still is going to take a while.
So far to me its looking nice. I'm trying to go with the lots of tunnels but keep them smaller idea.
nesnl
01-17-2010, 05:52 AM
I think it's good that you are taking the time to figure out what you want in a ball map. I spent a long time developing and creating maps for TBD as well as other modes, but I still have yet to really figure out what exactly I think makes a good ball map. Part of it is related to game size, where TBD is pretty standard (you never see a 10v10 TBD match), ball can vary so much. Also, as was talked about before, spawning is still a huge issue in ball (at least in my eyes). The problem with spawn points in ball is that they act as giant fans (yes lamster I am going to steal your analogy) and these fans push the action away from that area. So on maps like mayhem no one really uses the top route because there is usually always someone spawning there if not a few people at a time. On a map like Snow it is a bit better because the spawn points are segregated from the playable area, but going the bottom route is almost always safer than the middle route, and definitely better than trying to take the ball on the top route base the spawn area. I have been thinking a long time as to how I can best address this issue. Obviously changes could be made to the actual way people spawn in the game, but how as a map designer can I minimize the effects of the constant spawn waves so that I can maximize the playable area. Their is a reason that most maps have their play centered around the bottom of the map because it takes the opposing team longer to spawn and reach there. Just look at Mayhem2, Core, Darkwar, or any of the maps. In my opinion, while some of those maps are decent, I think they are far from ideal.
So anyway, I think Harmonica touches on a lot of good ideas, the problem is how to best implement them with respect to spawning. I want you to honestly ask yourself how many times you saw a goal happen because someone managed to sneak by in between a spawn wave and "get lucky" because they just happened to go by inbetween spawn waves and then compare that to how many times you thought you were going to have a clear shot to the goal and you were met by a large group of enemies who unfortunately spawned at that very moment. This is something I want to address. I want the game flow to be less affected by spawning. I don't have the answer to this problem. Maybe it is a flaw that will always have its effects in the game. It is like in a TBD game where if the spawn points are close to the base it allows for "lucky" spawn waves so that a team can just swoop down and block a bomb. This is why in a lot of the newer maps you see spawn points away from the base. If I could go back I would change most of the spawn points in my TBD maps.
But no matter what maps are made from here on out please realize that game size is the largest factor in how a map plays. There is nothing you can do about that. As long as their are 10v10 servers then the problem of how maps play is always going to be present. I think we need to settle on an ideal format for ball and design off of that. In TBD it is 5v5, but that maybe be too small for ball. Maybe it is 6v6 or maybe 7v7. However, I see a lot of people talking about ball and the new changes and how the game is bad or good and people try to bring up both small games and large games. This to me is a flaw in how they look at the game. They feel that a map should play well no matter the size, which is never ever going to happen.
Anyway, that's enough about all of that. I will let you know if I have any break throughs in my design. For now I am working on a map and it will probably be focused on something around 7v7. I am also working with another map maker in adapting one of his maps into a ball map (he is doing 99% of the work an deserves 100% of the credit). Look for these in the coming weeks. As for the 1DM maps, they have all been hosted on Non-Official #3, which is a purely 1DM server. Also, you can view all the maps I have ever made in my map making thread named "Maimer's Maps" in the Map Making sub-forum. There are JPEGs and analysis of every map I have made.
So anyway, I think Harmonica touches on a lot of good ideas, the problem is how to best implement them with respect to spawning. I want you to honestly ask yourself how many times you saw a goal happen because someone managed to sneak by in between a spawn wave and "get lucky" because they just happened to go by inbetween spawn waves and then compare that to how many times you thought you were going to have a clear shot to the goal and you were met by a large group of enemies who unfortunately spawned at that very moment. This is something I want to address. I want the game flow to be less affected by spawning. I don't have the answer to this problem. Maybe it is a flaw that will always have its effects in the game. It is like in a TBD game where if the spawn points are close to the base it allows for "lucky" spawn waves so that a team can just swoop down and block a bomb. This is why in a lot of the newer maps you see spawn points away from the base. If I could go back I would change most of the spawn points in my TBD maps.
But no matter what maps are made from here on out please realize that game size is the largest factor in how a map plays. There is nothing you can do about that. As long as their are 10v10 servers then the problem of how maps play is always going to be present. I think we need to settle on an ideal format for ball and design off of that. In TBD it is 5v5, but that maybe be too small for ball. Maybe it is 6v6 or maybe 7v7. However, I see a lot of people talking about ball and the new changes and how the game is bad or good and people try to bring up both small games and large games. This to me is a flaw in how they look at the game. They feel that a map should play well no matter the size, which is never ever going to happen.
Anyway, that's enough about all of that. I will let you know if I have any break throughs in my design. For now I am working on a map and it will probably be focused on something around 7v7. I am also working with another map maker in adapting one of his maps into a ball map (he is doing 99% of the work an deserves 100% of the credit). Look for these in the coming weeks. As for the 1DM maps, they have all been hosted on Non-Official #3, which is a purely 1DM server. Also, you can view all the maps I have ever made in my map making thread named "Maimer's Maps" in the Map Making sub-forum. There are JPEGs and analysis of every map I have made.
CCN
01-17-2010, 06:15 AM
What baout making a lot of spawn points, instead of just 1 or 2. So if you die you may spawn anywhere on your side of the map (except e.g. just around the goal area).
This way all routes are equally likely to be afflicted by the "fan" at any one time and dying has penalty (as you may be far from the action or teammates for a while).
This way all routes are equally likely to be afflicted by the "fan" at any one time and dying has penalty (as you may be far from the action or teammates for a while).
Sarah Palin
01-17-2010, 06:53 AM
I agree with everything you both said, and if I can add a further insight, one of the most important things in a map is DRAMA.
Drama depends on where the ball or bomb spends most of its time.
http://i48.tinypic.com/eug7rp.jpg
In a good design, most of the time one team is on the offensive and trying to push to the goal, and the other is trying to defend and halt that offensive. This makes all players feel like something is at stake, and leads to exciting and tense games: good drama. Most of the official maps are designed this way.
In a BAD design the ball or bomb spends most of the time in the middle, and people are constantly dying in a "center map melee" without the ball or bomb moving much. This is frustrating and boring: bad drama.
By their very nature neutral-bomb TBD games and Ball games are susceptible to this. In TBD, LostCities is loathed by some players for having particularly "bad" drama. In Ball there are a few maps where the ball just bounces back and forth across the middle floor for 80% of the game, e.g. Snow, Football.
The quantity and placement of obstacles helps to shape the drama.
Let's look at some maps for neutral-TBD and ball, especially how many obstacles they have in the CENTRAL third vs the thirds on either END:
LOST CITY TYPE: center is cluttered, ends are open
Other examples: Woods, Cave
http://nimblygames.com/wiki/images/thumb/e/e2/Lostcity.jpg/800px-Lostcity.jpg
CORE TYPE: center is open, ends are cluttered
Other examples: Darkwar, Grotto
http://nimblygames.com/wiki/images/thumb/9/97/Thecore1.jpg/800px-Thecore1.jpg
SNOW TYPE: obstacles evenly distributed
Other examples: Locomotion, Middleground, Labyrinth
http://nimblygames.com/wiki/images/thumb/6/66/Ballsnow.jpg/800px-Ballsnow.jpg
I think the Core type is best for ball.
The open center lets the ball move rapidly from one offensive to the other without getting bogged down in the middle. The cluttered edges help the defense and prevent the annoying long-shot goals you can do in Cave or Mayhem.
Drama depends on where the ball or bomb spends most of its time.
http://i48.tinypic.com/eug7rp.jpg
In a good design, most of the time one team is on the offensive and trying to push to the goal, and the other is trying to defend and halt that offensive. This makes all players feel like something is at stake, and leads to exciting and tense games: good drama. Most of the official maps are designed this way.
In a BAD design the ball or bomb spends most of the time in the middle, and people are constantly dying in a "center map melee" without the ball or bomb moving much. This is frustrating and boring: bad drama.
By their very nature neutral-bomb TBD games and Ball games are susceptible to this. In TBD, LostCities is loathed by some players for having particularly "bad" drama. In Ball there are a few maps where the ball just bounces back and forth across the middle floor for 80% of the game, e.g. Snow, Football.
The quantity and placement of obstacles helps to shape the drama.
Let's look at some maps for neutral-TBD and ball, especially how many obstacles they have in the CENTRAL third vs the thirds on either END:
LOST CITY TYPE: center is cluttered, ends are open
Other examples: Woods, Cave
http://nimblygames.com/wiki/images/thumb/e/e2/Lostcity.jpg/800px-Lostcity.jpg
CORE TYPE: center is open, ends are cluttered
Other examples: Darkwar, Grotto
http://nimblygames.com/wiki/images/thumb/9/97/Thecore1.jpg/800px-Thecore1.jpg
SNOW TYPE: obstacles evenly distributed
Other examples: Locomotion, Middleground, Labyrinth
http://nimblygames.com/wiki/images/thumb/6/66/Ballsnow.jpg/800px-Ballsnow.jpg
I think the Core type is best for ball.
The open center lets the ball move rapidly from one offensive to the other without getting bogged down in the middle. The cluttered edges help the defense and prevent the annoying long-shot goals you can do in Cave or Mayhem.
nesnl
01-17-2010, 07:19 AM
What baout making a lot of spawn points, instead of just 1 or 2. So if you die you may spawn anywhere on your side of the map (except e.g. just around the goal area).
This way all routes are equally likely to be afflicted by the "fan" at any one time and dying has penalty (as you may be far from the action or teammates for a while).
This was brought up in a brainstorm thread where the spawn points could be clustered like they are in TDM and you would spawn in a location that is at a cluster that is the most far away from the ball's current location. This way it would allow the ball to enter all areas of the map without having to worry about spawn waves and it would also create a large penalty for dying in that you would spawn at the spawn cluster farthest away from the action. I think it has some merit and maybe it should be tried. The confusing part is that you don't know where people are spawning so you can't really count on team mates being in certain areas.
This way all routes are equally likely to be afflicted by the "fan" at any one time and dying has penalty (as you may be far from the action or teammates for a while).
This was brought up in a brainstorm thread where the spawn points could be clustered like they are in TDM and you would spawn in a location that is at a cluster that is the most far away from the ball's current location. This way it would allow the ball to enter all areas of the map without having to worry about spawn waves and it would also create a large penalty for dying in that you would spawn at the spawn cluster farthest away from the action. I think it has some merit and maybe it should be tried. The confusing part is that you don't know where people are spawning so you can't really count on team mates being in certain areas.
classicallad
01-17-2010, 09:05 AM
Thinking about it, (football) being a bad example, although it serves as a source of fun for newer players that enjoy a 10v10 cluster, Reeslo's maps would fit pretty well for ball i think. Its a shame his maps are not around because i used to enjoy them thoroughly. To mention names, Orange, Purple, Hard_Laby and a few others' i can't remember are good playable maps.
Only saying this as it could be a way to recycle old, unused maps to add to the map pool.
Harm and tgleaf won't remember Reeslo's maps but you will have seen them Maimer? He used to host them on a server called 'Blue moon' and 'Fun Arena'.
Only saying this as it could be a way to recycle old, unused maps to add to the map pool.
Harm and tgleaf won't remember Reeslo's maps but you will have seen them Maimer? He used to host them on a server called 'Blue moon' and 'Fun Arena'.
Massi
01-17-2010, 03:21 PM
Thinking about it, (football) being a bad example, although it serves as a source of fun for newer players that enjoy a 10v10 cluster, Reeslo's maps would fit pretty well for ball i think. Its a shame his maps are not around because i used to enjoy them thoroughly. To mention names, Orange, Purple, Hard_Laby and a few others' i can't remember are good playable maps.
Only saying this as it could be a way to recycle old, unused maps to add to the map pool.
Harm and tgleaf won't remember Reeslo's maps but you will have seen them Maimer? He used to host them on a server called 'Blue moon' and 'Fun Arena'.
Those maps were so fun! I still have them somewhere on my computer I think. I call Orange!!
Only saying this as it could be a way to recycle old, unused maps to add to the map pool.
Harm and tgleaf won't remember Reeslo's maps but you will have seen them Maimer? He used to host them on a server called 'Blue moon' and 'Fun Arena'.
Those maps were so fun! I still have them somewhere on my computer I think. I call Orange!!
Vi*
01-17-2010, 05:42 PM
http://i48.tinypic.com/eug7rp.jpg
Compelling theory! I like it, SP.
Compelling theory! I like it, SP.
nesnl
01-17-2010, 06:19 PM
Thinking about it, (football) being a bad example, although it serves as a source of fun for newer players that enjoy a 10v10 cluster, Reeslo's maps would fit pretty well for ball i think. Its a shame his maps are not around because i used to enjoy them thoroughly. To mention names, Orange, Purple, Hard_Laby and a few others' i can't remember are good playable maps.
Only saying this as it could be a way to recycle old, unused maps to add to the map pool.
Harm and tgleaf won't remember Reeslo's maps but you will have seen them Maimer? He used to host them on a server called 'Blue moon' and 'Fun Arena'.
I already converted all those maps into ball maps. I don't think they turned out very well. They are linked in my maps thread as well as hosted on Non-Official #2 (and have been for a couple months now). Feel free to take a look and offer advice or changes or whatever.
Only saying this as it could be a way to recycle old, unused maps to add to the map pool.
Harm and tgleaf won't remember Reeslo's maps but you will have seen them Maimer? He used to host them on a server called 'Blue moon' and 'Fun Arena'.
I already converted all those maps into ball maps. I don't think they turned out very well. They are linked in my maps thread as well as hosted on Non-Official #2 (and have been for a couple months now). Feel free to take a look and offer advice or changes or whatever.
drunkguava
01-17-2010, 06:20 PM
Great idea, ccn. That could be really cool. I suck at map making, but it wouldn't be too hard to take some of maimers maps and spread out the spawn points. I might do that and upload them to my server. I also have the purple and orange maps on it, in case anyone wants to try them out. I think they're a lot of fun actually.
The server is called "competitive ball" and I'll remove the password so you all can play these maps.
On a side note, thank you for all those new Official hard wall ball servers! Now we just need to convince people to play on them instead of going to fun bouncy ball all the effing time.
The server is called "competitive ball" and I'll remove the password so you all can play these maps.
On a side note, thank you for all those new Official hard wall ball servers! Now we just need to convince people to play on them instead of going to fun bouncy ball all the effing time.
Sarah Palin
01-18-2010, 09:43 AM
Gonna put some brainstorming here.
This is a (very) rough draft for BALL_Supernova, which is an adaptation of TBD_Nuclear for 10v10 Ball.
The white rectangle is the size of a screenshot. BALL_Core is shown below for comparison.
http://i47.tinypic.com/i43090.png
http://i48.tinypic.com/169hug2.jpg
This map will be an experiment in a lot of ways.
1. It is the longest map in the game (so far), at 5,000x1,860. It is also the largest, about 1.8 times the size of Core, Cave, etc.
2. Planes spawn BELOW the goal. This helps keep the ball up in the air and stops the "spawn wave defense" problem.
3. The center is a Core type setup with a ring and two top and bottom passages. In my opinion Core is far and away the best bomb neutral map. For Ball, what this means is the ball will spend very little time in the center. The possibility of the ball moving from offensive to counteroffensive very quickly encourages distributed defense and offense.
4. Now the edges. Towards the bottom of the map we have long horizontals like in Snow. This encourages bounce passes and makes the bottom of the map faster, thus balancing the risk of planes from the spawn and the energy to make the ball climb up to the goal.
5. At the top of the map we have some big vertical baffles like in Labyrinth. This encourages lateral (i.e. vertical) passing and "faking out" the defenders.
6. There is a vertical obstacle lined up with the goal to prevent long-distance horizontal shots but there is a clear shot from beneath. It's riskier because it's near the spawn.
My main concern about this map is that teamwork will be harder because of the sheer size. Once it's done (probably early February as I am a nub at mapmaking) I would like to test it with some different viewscales.
This is a (very) rough draft for BALL_Supernova, which is an adaptation of TBD_Nuclear for 10v10 Ball.
The white rectangle is the size of a screenshot. BALL_Core is shown below for comparison.
http://i47.tinypic.com/i43090.png
http://i48.tinypic.com/169hug2.jpg
This map will be an experiment in a lot of ways.
1. It is the longest map in the game (so far), at 5,000x1,860. It is also the largest, about 1.8 times the size of Core, Cave, etc.
2. Planes spawn BELOW the goal. This helps keep the ball up in the air and stops the "spawn wave defense" problem.
3. The center is a Core type setup with a ring and two top and bottom passages. In my opinion Core is far and away the best bomb neutral map. For Ball, what this means is the ball will spend very little time in the center. The possibility of the ball moving from offensive to counteroffensive very quickly encourages distributed defense and offense.
4. Now the edges. Towards the bottom of the map we have long horizontals like in Snow. This encourages bounce passes and makes the bottom of the map faster, thus balancing the risk of planes from the spawn and the energy to make the ball climb up to the goal.
5. At the top of the map we have some big vertical baffles like in Labyrinth. This encourages lateral (i.e. vertical) passing and "faking out" the defenders.
6. There is a vertical obstacle lined up with the goal to prevent long-distance horizontal shots but there is a clear shot from beneath. It's riskier because it's near the spawn.
My main concern about this map is that teamwork will be harder because of the sheer size. Once it's done (probably early February as I am a nub at mapmaking) I would like to test it with some different viewscales.
Harmonica
01-18-2010, 05:39 PM
Wow, I had no idea there was such intricate thought already going into the maps. The "fan" metaphor and "drama" elements make a lot of sense, but I'd never thought about things that way before.
That map looks neat, Palin -- is there any easy way to beta test it?
I notice that the walls closest to each goal are aligned with the goal opening, and a few of the other walls seem angled towards those at-the-goal walls -- is this intended to encourage single- and double-bounce shots? I like the goal clearing routes as well, particularly the "covered but starting near the goal vs open but outward" decision. I hope you don't mind the critique, but one item jumps out at me: would Loopy spam be an issue? A lot of the areas seem open enough and oriented such that blind missile fire might be a little too easy. I also like the size -- I have to admit I was worried when you suggested 5000px wide maps, but seeing it in screenshot form the scale looks neat to me. =) I hope you don't mind if I steal some of these ideas for my map. ;-)
That map looks neat, Palin -- is there any easy way to beta test it?
I notice that the walls closest to each goal are aligned with the goal opening, and a few of the other walls seem angled towards those at-the-goal walls -- is this intended to encourage single- and double-bounce shots? I like the goal clearing routes as well, particularly the "covered but starting near the goal vs open but outward" decision. I hope you don't mind the critique, but one item jumps out at me: would Loopy spam be an issue? A lot of the areas seem open enough and oriented such that blind missile fire might be a little too easy. I also like the size -- I have to admit I was worried when you suggested 5000px wide maps, but seeing it in screenshot form the scale looks neat to me. =) I hope you don't mind if I steal some of these ideas for my map. ;-)
drunkguava
01-18-2010, 05:48 PM
spalin it looks great! It could be verrry cool to play in such a large map. I like what you did with the spawn points as well. And, as harm said, the obstacles near the goals could lend to some sweet bounce shots.
My only qualm is with the center. I never really like ball_core much until recently, but I still find that the center is rarely used because it is so open and dangerous. Based on your post you dont see this as a bad thing, but I think the fact that it's a death trap kind of makes it wasted space. Most of the time the ball will be run above or below it. Imo, it would be better if you added a second, smaller ring of obstacles in the center. crowding this area a bit would make it less untouchable, though it would still be somewhat dangerous.
My only qualm is with the center. I never really like ball_core much until recently, but I still find that the center is rarely used because it is so open and dangerous. Based on your post you dont see this as a bad thing, but I think the fact that it's a death trap kind of makes it wasted space. Most of the time the ball will be run above or below it. Imo, it would be better if you added a second, smaller ring of obstacles in the center. crowding this area a bit would make it less untouchable, though it would still be somewhat dangerous.
r87
01-18-2010, 07:00 PM
I'm not quoting that monstrosity that Palin posted, but I like it aside from one problem.
One of the prime reasons people hate ball_woods is because the spawn point is at the very bottom of the map.
This appears to be a problem on this new map as well. Additionally, having the spawn point at one of only two entrances to the goal area kind of takes it away as a viable route.
2c
One of the prime reasons people hate ball_woods is because the spawn point is at the very bottom of the map.
This appears to be a problem on this new map as well. Additionally, having the spawn point at one of only two entrances to the goal area kind of takes it away as a viable route.
2c
Sarah Palin
01-19-2010, 01:01 AM
Thanks for the suggestions!
I unfortunately have a lot of real life stuff to do until early February so this map won't appear for testing for quite a while :(
I unfortunately have a lot of real life stuff to do until early February so this map won't appear for testing for quite a while :(
York
01-19-2010, 03:07 AM
i made ball_asteroids. its prety ill
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