altitudegame: Patch: Jan 15th, skins, new maps, balance, ball improvements, bug fixes page 1

lamster

01-16-2010, 12:52 AM

This is a fairly big patch, please play it a couple hours before commenting on balance and ball changes. The community points system is ready, check it out under Hangar Deck -> Community Points. There will be a few more ways to earn points that aren't listed there yet (for example, creating a map that becomes official, etc) but let's discuss that in another thread.

==============================================
Jan 15th, 2010

Improved UPnP compatibility

Added Shark and Zebra skins for all planes, check them out under Hangar Deck -> Community Points

Added 10 new 1dm maps (thanks Maimer)
Updated 1dm_clocktower (thanks pig_bomb)

Additional display options available Options -> Gameplay:
* Show Plane Skins
* Show Ping/FPS in bottom left
* Show Exp Log (Killed A for 10 xp, Assist on B for 4xp, etc) in bottom middle
* Show Kill Popups in bottom right
* Change chat opacity (for better visibility of left side of screen, hit enter to view chat at full opacity)

Ace Instincts: now reduces XP required to gain a bar from 10 to 8 in addition to increasing per bar bonuses to speed/turn/regen/damage by 50%

Miranda's Reverse and Time Anchor abilities now temporarily disable Repair Drone just like afterburning

Miranda's Time Anchor cooldown is increased by 35% when carrying the Big Bomb or Ball

Miranda Charge Shot:
can no longer hit the same plane twice with a single shot
each bounce now reduces the total damage by 25% (up from 20%)

Miranda Laser:
increased total damage by 4% (260 -> 270)
increased length by 1% (273 -> 276)
increased duration by 1% (.8045 -> .812)

Explodet (all forms):
increased rocket acceleration by 10%

Explodet Remote Mine:
no longer collides with planes, complete control of detonation just like rockets
increased cooldown (0.35 -> 0.66)
increased minimum release->detonation time (0.15 -> 0.30)
reduced blast radius by 4%

Adjustments have been made to plane ball to encourage diversity in strategies, roles, and planes, and to improve passing and other high skill maneuvers (long passes and shots, deliberately bouncing the ball off terrain, etc):

Decreased drag on ball (less speed lost while ball sails through open air)
Increased elasticity of ball collisions (less speed lost when bouncing off surfaces)

Miranda must now wait 0.7 seconds after releasing the ball before warping (Realism note: warp core jury-rigged to provide blast for ball ejection, takes a moment to reconfigure)

Larger planes now shoot the ball significantly faster (previously, all planes ejected with velocity = 13.5)
Bomber: 18.5
Explodet: 18.5
Biplane: 16.5
Miranda: 16
Loopy: 14.5

Larger planes now retain more speed while carrying ball, smaller planes significantly slowed by extra weight (all planes still lose 50% afterburner effectivness while carrying ball)
Explodet: 94% (up from 87%)
Bomber: 94% (up from 87%)
Biplane: 86% (up from 85%)
Miranda: 86% (unchanged)
Loopy: 77% (down from 82%)

Large red respawn banner now minimizes when F is pressed to confirm respawn, TAB is pressed to show scores, Enter is pressed to chat, or automatically after 10 seconds
Slightly increased XP per damage dealt to buildings for intuitive display in popup, XP indicator, and award screen: now receive exactly 1 XP for every 1-percent-of-base-health damage dealt to buildings, 'demolition expert' award now shows damage in percent-base-health units
Added "Team Eliminated" messages to 1-life game modes
Training mission turrets are easier to kill on low difficulties (easy=4x, medium=2x)

Bot kills and deaths no longer affect lifetime stats (Hangar Deck -> Stats)
Experience per minute from bot kills is now capped to discourage bot farming

Fixed bug that allowed plane balls fired point blank into goal walls to teleport through

Fixed a few non-gameplay bugs:
* server list now retains current selection while updating
* server list no longer shows "maxPlayers <= 2" in UI when "All" is selected
* UI display bugs when testPlaneScale has been set
* options.xml now saved even on failed startup for easier debugging
* server launcher now restarts to update if there is insufficient memory to update while running

Massi

01-16-2010, 01:40 AM

I will post a more constructive thing later.
Okay so I bought the Explodet Zebra skin in the main menu Hanger Deck>Community points>buy I did that then went in game to try to equip it and it still showed I hadn't bought it and when I clicked to try and buy it, it said I already had but still said I had 101 points but wouldn't let me buy it, because I had already.
I am just going to add as things come.
So on remote the only thing I don't like is reduced blast radius. Now it makes it harder to blast out of stalls because the blast barely if any at all even touches you. Other than that I like the remote patch it will just take a while to get used to.

Pieface

01-16-2010, 01:41 AM

I just purchased my brand new zebra miranda skin, but when I go to the plane config it still says it isn't unlocked. When I click on the skin in the config, it brings me to the hangar deck where it is clearly unlocked. Just thought you should be aware. Edit: I now have zero Community Points.

Double Edit: Restarting it fixed the problem, thanks Black.

Massi

01-16-2010, 01:42 AM

Pie restart Alti. I fixed by restarting Alti. So never mind.
You're welcome Pie. =D

poofighter24

01-16-2010, 01:46 AM

Sarah Palin

01-16-2010, 01:48 AM

Long list of changes to ball, including a lot that people had already suggested. Playing it now, interested to see how it all adds up.

Massi

01-16-2010, 01:50 AM

Thanks for making the Miranda completely unusable in ball. No, really, it's much simpler to just nerf a plane that is perceived as overpowered when in reality it's just that people can't EMP to save their lives. I'm glad you chose the easy way out.

Cummon really don't hate. They just spent days setting up all this new stuff and all you have to say is "you ruined miranda in ball" when you could at least say thank you for setting up all this amazing stuff. Community Points, Miranda laser fix, ball fix and all you can say is that they choose the easy way out. I mean, Really?

HArrier

01-16-2010, 01:56 AM

Yes i want to ask if there will be a way to purchase these points through paypal or something.

I have 108 points yet i do want more skins and my friends dont click much on my links.

Also why is it that steamplayers can get 100 more points than those who purchased the game while it was $20 and not on steam.

poofighter24

01-16-2010, 01:56 AM

Cummon really don't hate. They just spent days setting up all this new stuff and all you have to say is "you ruined miranda in ball" when you could at least say thank you for setting up all this amazing stuff. Community Points, Miranda laser fix, ball fix and all you can say is that they choose the easy way out. I mean, Really?

If the staff needs affirmation that badly, I will gladly dispense buttpats to all of them. I paid my :tenbux: for the game, I should be able to freely have my own opinion over any changes made.

If I get infracted or banned or whatever for disagreeing with a change, that's on the mods. I'm voicing my opinion, and I'm not going to sugarcoat.

Massi

01-16-2010, 02:09 AM

If the staff needs affirmation that badly, I will gladly dispense buttpats to all of them. I paid my :tenbux: for the game, I should be able to freely have my own opinion over any changes made.

If I get infracted or banned or whatever for disagreeing with a change, that's on the mods. I'm voicing my opinion, and I'm not going to sugarcoat.

I'm saying its bad, you should tell what you think is wrong and need fixing. But is it really that hard to say thank you for everything they've done? Also its not hard either to say it some way other than "you ruined miranda in ball" maybe "I'm not a fan of the new miranda nerf in ball I think it would be better to keep it the same". Thats all I'm saying I don't want this to turn into a flame war.
~Black

Snowsickle

01-16-2010, 02:17 AM

If the staff needs affirmation that badly, I will gladly dispense buttpats to all of them. I paid my :tenbux: for the game, I should be able to freely have my own opinion over any changes made.

If I get infracted or banned or whatever for disagreeing with a change, that's on the mods. I'm voicing my opinion, and I'm not going to sugarcoat.

You're more than welcome to disagree, but do so in a constructive manner. Insulting the developers' intelligence and devotion to the game because you aren't getting your way is not the way to do it. Your opinion should include reasons why a change was bad, not something that amounts to complete personal bias.

Understand that the developers are catering to a playerbase that includes thousands of players at this point; this game isn't going to be balanced around your personal playstyle. Voice your opinion and move on, but avoid getting emotional over it.

nesnl

01-16-2010, 02:19 AM

Thanks for making the Miranda completely unusable in ball. No, really, it's much simpler to just nerf a plane that is perceived as overpowered when in reality it's just that people can't EMP to save their lives. I'm glad you chose the easy way out.

So you were okay with only 1 plane, and more specially, a plane with a certain perk setup being the only way to stop a miranda in ball? What if the team doesn't have a loopy, then they really can't EMP to save their lives because they don't even have it as a choice!

I think you will see in this patch that even though self pass (aka moving with the ball without reducing your speed) was removed, that overall the game will be more balanced and that miranda will find its role in the ball mode outside of the whole breakaway guaranteed goal.

lamster

01-16-2010, 02:21 AM

Miranda's self-pass was nerfed, but with faster passes across the board and much faster loose balls (there's less aerodynamic drag on the ball and less energy lost on bounces) I expect the striker / retriever role to be more important than ever. Miranda's unique maneuverability and instant-teleport should make him ideal for grabbing and redirecting loose balls. Please give the new patch a fair shot, see how Miranda feels after adapting to the role changes, and as always balance will be adjusted once it's clear how everything shakes out.

DryBone

01-16-2010, 02:24 AM

Ah......skins. cool

NastyManatee

01-16-2010, 02:29 AM

While I think that what poofighter said was harsh, I do agree with his intent. Miranda was only ever truly overpowered in games smaller than 5v5, which is an infinitesimal fraction of actual games, and the entire point of the Miranda's warp was that you get quick warps at the high cost of energy. Warps aren't some hack providing infinite speed for as long as you want, they are and were balanced to begin with.

I talk more about this false perception of overpoweredness in my Miranda ball guide, which is now completely obsolete I might add...

Speaking of which, feel free to delete that post, it's worthless now.

The point is this: If Miranda's were so overpowered in ball, why did only a few people use them? Forcing the few people who didn't play loopy into a loopy doesn't encourage strategy, it does just the opposite.

On the whole, I greatly like this patch, but I think some serious thought needs to be given as to whether Miranda's were overpowered, or if the largely noob ranks of ball players perceived it as overpowered when a few skilled and veteran players used it properly. I hope the decision is reevaluated.

If anything, I can see making it so Miranda's have a shortened warp after passing for a little while, preventing long and sloppy self-passing, but I honestly never saw a problem to begin with.

tgleaf

01-16-2010, 02:29 AM

This is definitely exciting. Thank you for all the hard work I'm sure went into this patch. I haven't had a chance to play it yet, but I look forward to the changes to ball. Like them or not, it will be fun to get used to new strategies and to feel a little like a noob again... that rush, the challenge, etc.

And I agree, let's give these some time before we start commenting (yes, that's coming from someone who debated them _before_ they went live... lol).

NastyManatee

01-16-2010, 02:31 AM

And I completely intend to give the patch a shot and share my thoughts, I just wanted to give an initial perception from someone who has put some thought into the matter before right now.

Lam, my guide also talks a bit more about my perception of the self-pass. If you could browse over it I'd appreciate it, it might give a different perspective on the issue.

Thanks.

AtomikPi

01-16-2010, 02:34 AM

Explodet Remote Mine:
no longer collides with planes, complete control of detonation just like rockets
increased cooldown (0.35 -> 0.66)
increased minimum release->detonation time (0.15 -> 0.30)
reduced blast radius by 4%

Well someone's going to have to start the explodet revolt, so I guess I'll go ahead and do it.

While I don't think anyone will complain about the first and fourth nerfs - the first because the proxy detonation encourages spam and the last because I don't think it's even noticeable - the second and third are pretty substantial nerfs. Playing a bit with the new explo, it does not feel "right" at all - the entire play-style of remote is changed now to be closer to the other red perks. I suppose if you really need to implement one, the second would be less annoying, but it would be preferrable if major balance tweaks like this could start off a bit more gradually instead of immediately pounding us with four substantial nerfs.

poofighter24

01-16-2010, 02:39 AM

So you were okay with only 1 plane, and more specially, a plane with a certain perk setup being the only way to stop a miranda in ball? What if the team doesn't have a loopy, then they really can't EMP to save their lives because they don't even have it as a choice!

I think you will see in this patch that even though self pass (aka moving with the ball without reducing your speed) was removed, that overall the game will be more balanced and that miranda will find its role in the ball mode outside of the whole breakaway guaranteed goal.

If your team doesn't have a loopy and you're playing against a miranda, that is your team's problem. Get someone that knows how to EMP to play loopy to counterbalance the miranda. One decent loopy can shut down a miranda extremely easily.

Let me get this straight - you really believe what you're typing with the second part of your post? You really mean to tell me that a miranda that can no longer kill as effectively (weapon nerfed) or survive as long (repair drone nerfed) and can effectively only retrieve balls that aren't under control and throw them up so a teammate can catch them and hopefully score is a "balanced" plane?

Nerfing self-pass on its own.. maybe I would have taken it. But making a plane literally 100% useless in ball? Screw that.

Herodadotus

01-16-2010, 02:40 AM

I enjoyed the skins. They were a bit weird to look at for a little bit, but I quickly got used to it. I love the new changes to Laser Miranda. Overall, not being a very avid Miranda or Explodet player, I can't really complain about anything. Very good job!

nesnl

01-16-2010, 02:40 AM

Well someone's going to have to start the explodet revolt, so I guess I'll go ahead and do it.

While I don't think anyone will complain about the first and fourth nerfs - the first because the proxy detonation encourages spam and the last because I don't think it's even noticeable - the second and third are pretty substantial nerfs. Playing a bit with the new explo, it does not feel "right" at all - the entire play-style of remote is changed now to be closer to the other red perks. I suppose if you really need to implement one, the second would be less annoying, but it would be preferrable if major balance tweaks like this could start off a bit more gradually instead of immediately pounding us with four substantial nerfs.

I played with it and I did not have this reaction, so I am surprised when you say this. I think that one of the most important things that the 2nd and 3rd adjustments (fine, nerfs) did was that they removed explodet mine jumping. I don't know if you have been playing games with me in the past few weeks, but I basically bomb bases from 2 full screen lengths away on some maps.

Also, you mentioned that the new playstyle has been changed so that it is closer to the other red perks, but I think it is the exact opposite. The new cooldown times require you to play it as a remote mine, meaning you place the mine remotely and then detonate it. The playstyle prior to this change was basically a rapid fire explosion out of the backside of the plane. To me, the new changes will force remote mine players to play more skillfully, requiring actual thought in placing mines at specific locations rather than just mashing D and hoping the planes around the explodet die.

poofighter24

01-16-2010, 02:41 AM

Herodadotus

01-16-2010, 02:43 AM

If your team doesn't have a loopy and you're playing against a miranda, that is your team's problem. Get someone that knows how to EMP to play loopy to counterbalance the miranda. One decent loopy can shut down a miranda extremely easily.

Let me get this straight - you really believe what you're typing with the second part of your post? You really mean to tell me that a miranda that can no longer kill as effectively (weapon nerfed) or survive as long (repair drone nerfed) and can effectively only retrieve balls that aren't under control and throw them up so a teammate can catch them and hopefully score is a "balanced" plane?

Nerfing self-pass on its own.. maybe I would have taken it. But making a plane literally 100% useless in ball? Screw that.

Since I'm not a Miranda player at heart, I'm not going to argue any of the points made here. But I think you probably need to calm down a bit. Once you get rid of the indignant tone, maybe people won't be responding in this way.

EDIT: Please chill out. Seriously, play TBD or something if you don't want to play DP loopy. That's what I do when I'm not in the mood to play Acid Loopy.

tyr

01-16-2010, 02:44 AM

Ok so we played a few rounds of ball. I only used loopy, as usual, but I watched the other planes carefully.

- Loopy's role doesnt seem to have changed a lot. It's still fast, still has good dps, and still has 0 health. It can still recover the ball quickly but doesn't survive very long in the middle of the action while being able to deal quite a lot of damage if nobody's shooting at you.
I like this.

- Biplane seems to be much better. It used to be almost good, but after watching GGQ do some amazing stuff with biplane, it now seems perfect.

- Bomber seemed okay. As it ever is. For me it kinda always felt that bomber isn't really the right plane for ball. Its special attack pattern combined to his fatitude and slowness made it relatively useless in my eyes. I think it's a bit better now. It can serve as a solid ball carrier and passer. Needs more testing before I can be 100% sure but at a first glance it seemed good.

- Explodet ... Hmmm. Many people were using explodet in the dozen or so rounds we played. There were like .. 35% explodets, 25% loopies, and the rest for the 3 other planes pretty equal.
Surprisingly, it didn't make the game much slower than it used to be, and that's very very good stuff. This means that explodets are now definitely good planes for ball, who can do their goalkeeper job very well (they're still as fat and slow as they used to be, attacking with an explodet isn't very wise, but they're obviously good passers). So yeah, good changes here, imo.

- Miranda .. aaaah, miranda.
Seemed perfect to me ! PERFECT.
Mikesol was still extremely scary with his time anchor but not as unstoppable as before. It definitely isn't useless as some people might say, but it is no longer OP. As lamster just said, randa users will just have to rediscover their role in ball, and not just limit it to pass+warp until you score a goal.
Welcome to the real world.

Ok so I think you see that I really like the changes that have been made to planeball so far. I guess it'll need more testing but after those games, it seemed very good.

What I like a bit less though is the perpetual spamming of "unlock the skin !" on the main menu. Seriously, I get it, please disappear now. And it still comes back.
Please make it so it doesnt appear so often ... It really is annoying.

HArrier

01-16-2010, 02:46 AM

And for the record, if I even continue playing this game at all, it will be in a loopy. Congrats, you took one of the few people in the game that doesn't play a double-missile loopy and forced him into one. Buttpats all around.

You are obviously not a good person. You need to appriciate more what you get.

Ps thnks for the skins and for the boost on the comunitypoints of the game. Lam i need to know how i will get my 300 pints since i introduced a friend of mine into the game. He asked me to buy him the game but how will i get the ppoints for that?

Massi

01-16-2010, 02:47 AM

And for the record, if I even continue playing this game at all, it will be in a loopy. Congrats, you took one of the few people in the game that doesn't play a double-missile loopy and forced him into one. Buttpats all around.

I said that was the last time i would talk the last time (lol). First no one forced you to play loopy, play explodet, miranda, biplane, bomber, and yes miranda even play acid. Just try to play TBD maybe and play other planes. They are all equally balanced but you apparently don't like to go "out-of-the-box" and try new things. Practice and you will get better at other planes. Just because you aren't good at other planes without tracking doesn't mean you need to take it out on the devs.

eth

01-16-2010, 02:49 AM

I'll just start off by saying thanks a lot, this is probably the biggest patch I've seen to date.. really impressive!

Anyway, my thoughts:

- Remote may have been nerfed a bit too hard. The overlapping cooldowns leaves you extremely vulnerable for long periods of time, so if you don't get your enemy(ies) thrown off course with your first mine, you're most likely screwed. But I'll have to play some more before I can like say "yes, it is terrible". Just my opinion right now after trying it for some 15 mins.

- The trickster nerf is nice as it reduces a luck aspect in the game, and I think most players are not big fans of getting killed by luck. I never really had any complaints against trickster in the first place(except maybe that), so yeah. Nice one.

- Laser buff - meh. Again I didn't really feel anything about laser before the patch.. I had great success with it before. But either way this buff seems extremely minor, so no complaints here either! ;)

- All of the Ball stuff seems amazing so far, it really does. Faster passing is definitely a better thing, as you can do a lot of cool stuff with it(especially so in 5-6-7v7). However - and this is probably my biggest gripe so far, which became more prominent after the patch - ball(and TBD for that matter) scales terribly with the amount of players in a game. The more players you have, the more dominant heavy planes become(as they offer insane map control compared to light planes), and then you end up with 4 bombers and 6 explodets just spamming/mining up the entire map, because that is simply the easiest and best way to win. That also kinda negates the new changes, because ball passing speed doesn't really matter all that much when you have these clumps of mines and planes and spam everywhere - there's just not much room for cool maneuvering and passes. I have absolutely no idea how to fix this though(except play 5v5/6v6, where the balance between heavy/light planes is much better), so.. anyway. Please give that some consideration, as matches with pure heavy planes fighting aren't very fun.

- The miranda self-pass nerf is obviously very good, as 99% players agree with(referring to the flamer above), and it is still amazing in ball(except now you need to make some good passes).

Lastly, skins are absolutely ****ing awesome, don't really have much more to say on it than that! ^^ Thanks again!

ryebone

01-16-2010, 02:52 AM

Steering clear from the flamebait several posts above, it must be mentioned that while the background for clocktower is pretty, it's extremely difficult to see where the collidable edges are, as well as peoples names above planes..

Triped

01-16-2010, 02:53 AM

Really nice patch, guys. The new ball changes are going to make the upcoming tourney a lot more interesting.

r87

01-16-2010, 02:54 AM

- All of the Ball stuff seems amazing so far, it really does. Faster passing is definitely a better thing, as you can do a lot of cool stuff with it(especially so in 5-6-7v7). However - and this is probably my biggest gripe so far, which became more prominent after the patch - ball(and TBD for that matter) scales terribly with the amount of players in a game. The more players you have, the more dominant heavy planes become(as they offer insane map control compared to light planes), and then you end up with 4 bombers and 6 explodets just spamming/mining up the entire map, because that is simply the easiest and best way to win. That also kinda negates the new changes, because ball passing speed doesn't really matter all that much when you have these clumps of mines and planes and spam everywhere - there's just not much room for cool maneuvering and passes. I have absolutely no idea how to fix this though(except play 5v5/6v6, where the balance between heavy/light planes is much better), so.. anyway. Please give that some consideration, as matches with pure heavy planes fighting aren't very fun.

This, emphatically.

It is expected on a 10v10 public server that you will take some hits (which slow you down) on a scoring run. Now, you have zero chance of finishing that run because of how much slower your plane is.

Also, getting emp'd when you have the ball = wow.

edit 1: Ball_woods is the first map I have encountered that shows how infuriating the ball carry speed changes are. A map where you are already going slow with the ball because of how often you have to go up up up is now absolutely ridiculous.

mikesol

01-16-2010, 02:55 AM

Ok so I've played for awhile - did 2 scrims against IL and a bunch of ball matches (although it hasn't been a huge time since the patch).

My impressions:

1) Miranda self pass - while saddening that it's gone - is not such a big deal to me. It makes it so passing is much more part of the game and I'm excited about that. As much fun as it was to be able to dodge entire enemy teams and fly across maps - I think it's nice that I have a purpose of passing the ball.

2) The Miranda 35% longer while holding annoys me. However, it's not a game breaker. It doesn't make the plane unplayable - although it is definitely a decent nerf to my plane.

3) The repair + time anchor thing I think is overkill. Ok take away self-pass, take away bounce shot, take away my ability to anchor quicker but seriously? The time anchor's secondary ability is all about anchoring. It's ridiculous that repair is stopped because of this. It's basically like I can either play the plane without doing any movement at all or I can anchor and lose the whole point of repair. While it is touching people felt like the miranda is so op that ALL of this was needed I just feel like this is the wrong way to go about it. It reminds me of how laser was nerfed so badly after Maimer pwned so many people with it that it was underpowered for a long time. If you want to make it so I can't repair and anchor give us SOMETHING in return (more hp, faster movement, etc). The Miranda really doesn't need all of these nerfs. Really this is the biggest upset of mine in this patch.

4) Skins annoy me (Although I am glad that you can shut them off). My issue is that I can't tell what color team people are on when they have them on (at least the ones I've seen). In other words, for us color-blind people skins are frustrating and not usable in their current state.

5) The community points thing really bugs me. I have shared this game with all of my friends back in the day. I have posted it on facebook. I have bought the game when it was $20. I've made a significant guide and contributed a lot through suggestions and posts here. I've won a screenshot contest. Yet, despite all of that, I have 1 community point. 1. It just seems unfair / ridiculous to me that I have to go out and spam stuff and that pretty much my only option is figuring out how to abuse the system because I've already done all of the community stuff way back in the day. Yes, I get you want to spread the game. Yes, I get that people need motivation for spreading it. However, there should more things to gain community points. I'm not trying to be stuck up or anything but I feel that I have contributed more than "1 point" to the community.

nesnl

01-16-2010, 02:55 AM

Steering clear from the flamebait above, it must be mentioned that while the background for clocktower is pretty, it's extremely difficult to see where the collidable edges are, as well as peoples names above planes..

I thought that issue with clocktower got fixed... I will talk to pig and see if I can get him to make an updated version.

poofighter24

01-16-2010, 02:57 AM

I said that was the last time i would talk the last time (lol). First no one forced you to play loopy, play explodet, miranda, biplane, bomber, and yes miranda even play acid. Just try to play TBD maybe and play other planes. They are all equally balanced but you apparently don't like to go "out-of-the-box" and try new things. Practice and you will get better at other planes. Just because you aren't good at other planes without tracking doesn't mean you need to take it out on the devs.

If I wanted to play TBD, I would play TBD. I don't see the relevancy in the self-passing nerf on TBD, since you can't, you know, self-pass.

If the point was to nerf mirandas in general, then the nerfs other than the nerf to self-passing would have been sufficient. Instead, they took the miranda in ball, bent it over, and screwed its brains out.

I heard Sarah Palin say in game (not calling you out, just sayin') that Mikesol didn't think the nerf was bad, so it obviously wasn't bad. Apparently, Mikesol represents every single miranda player that has ever played the game and I should be ejaculating just at the mention of his name. However, his opinion is not the opinion that matters in this case. He's purportedly the best miranda player in altitude right now - are you suggesting that in order to be able to use the miranda at all, you have to be as good as mikesol? Really?

Vi*

01-16-2010, 03:00 AM

poofighter24

01-16-2010, 03:02 AM

After reading mikesol's post, I actually agree with most of what he's saying (hopefully that counteracts some of the digs I posted earlier >_>)

Although I agree that the miranda probably deserved a nerf, I disagree that it should have been nerfed to the point to where it's absolutely useless in ball unless you have a ridiculous skill level with the plane. If you just took away either the plane's time anchor and repair drone functionality and left selfpass, I would be okay with it. If you took out selfpass but left time anchor and repair drone alone, I would be okay with it. Take out both, and you have a plane that can't maneuver even as well as a biplane, is easily killed, and can't avoid damage.

wat?

Herodadotus

01-16-2010, 03:05 AM

If I wanted to play TBD, I would play TBD. I don't see the relevancy in the self-passing nerf on TBD, since you can't, you know, self-pass.

If the point was to nerf mirandas in general, then the nerfs other than the nerf to self-passing would have been sufficient. Instead, they took the miranda in ball, bent it over, and screwed its brains out.

I heard Sarah Palin say in game (not calling you out, just sayin') that Mikesol didn't think the nerf was bad, so it obviously wasn't bad. Apparently, Mikesol represents every single miranda player that has ever played the game and I should be ejaculating just at the mention of his name. However, his opinion is not the opinion that matters in this case. He's purportedly the best miranda player in altitude right now - are you suggesting that in order to be able to use the miranda at all, you have to be as good as mikesol? Really?

That's faulty logic. Even though I respect Mikesol and his opinions, just because he thought that self-pass wasn't op doesn't make it a fact. For almost every other player that didn't play miranda, self-passing takes no skill at all, and just irritates everyone. Your logic is like stating "If a Penguin is a bird, and an Eagle is a bird, and Eagles can fly for long distances, then Penguins can too." I think that the repair drone nerf is unfair, but the self-pass is one of the updates that is better for the Altitude community as a whole, imo.

EDIT: People are posting really fast. Two posts shot by when I was posting. And that last post of yours was well thought out. As stated earlier, I believe that the repair drone/time anchor update was unnecessary.

r87

01-16-2010, 03:08 AM

Been playing for a bit now...

Aside from the obvious annoyance of being slowed down by the ball, shot speed makes previously difficult shots incredibly easy.

Nikon

01-16-2010, 03:12 AM

this update is great!! I think that you should make more skins if you didn't think of that yet, and that you should be able to unlock skins by getting kills and stuff. Also you should make the levels be able to go up to like 200 that would be cool. Thanks for the update!! and Altitude ROCKS!!!!

Nikon..

Slevin

01-16-2010, 03:13 AM

Explodet (all forms):
increased rocket acceleration by 10%

Explodet Remote Mine:
-no longer collides with planes, complete control of detonation just like
rockets
-increased cooldown (0.35 -> 0.66)
-increased minimum release->detonation time (0.15 -> 0.30)
-reduced blast radius by 4%

This is to much, why explodet suffer the most? i can accept the rest, but please make the cooldown and the minimum release back o normal, i beg u please! PLEASE! Nerf loops! their emp blast radius! is still annoying, and ppl still abuse the tracker, nerf that instead killing the "whale" with all of this.

Love the rest of the update especially the fps/ping indicator, love them. Maybe u can add them on console command so its easier to turn it on/off? The new planes skin look awesome! Great job, except on explodet! Hate it! Change the cooldown and the minimum release back to normal please, its already too much for us Explodet player, Please i beg you please.. SAVE THE WHALE!!!

GGQ

01-16-2010, 03:17 AM

I highly approve of this patch all around.

I know some people are a little miffed at how many community points they need to unlock all the skins, but I think the developers intend for most people to only unlock a couple for their favourite planes, so you actually have to make a choice about which skin to unlock. I know I will only be taking stripes/shark for my biplane and then largely ignoring the rest; not worth the effort to farm the points for me.

i love the nerfs to time anchor with the ball/bomb, but nerfing repair might be overboard. Miranda will still have a role in ball without the self-pass. Sorry, nastymanatee, but self-pass was just silly.

Biplane can finally be used legitimately in Ball; the difference between playing a loopy or biplane in Ball now feels much like the difference between playing them in TBD. There's a trade-off no matter which you pick, rather than loopy being the only choice. I still wouldn't mind seeing a very slight nerf to double-fire either in dps or in its auto-aim in the future.

The nerfs to remote felt good as a recoilless biplane, but I haven't tried remote with the changes yet. Anyways, yay for patch.

Kuja900

01-16-2010, 03:19 AM

The explodet rocket responsiveness feels off. I cant detonate it immediately their is a delay.

mikesol

01-16-2010, 03:38 AM

One more point I saw. I don't play remote very much however it seems silly the way mines work. Let me give you an example:

Mat is flying in front of plane to defend base. Plane is afterburning and gets close. Mat lets bomb go and tries to detonate it. Plane flies through bomb and gets detonated forward towards the base without stalling and hits it easily.

That's very much a problem in my eyes. I realize remote needed a nerf - but as it is it seems like getting behind a remote is the best way to handle bombing if you have any speed.

Note: I realize that if you adjust your ability to judge mine output and blowing it up that it CAN work. However, I just don't like the "oh i can fly through a mine now." Sometimes I will purposely try to warp through a remote so that when they blow it up I'll get a boost.

Just something else to consider :)

Harmonica

01-16-2010, 03:40 AM

I also like the changes.

I haven't tried Loopy or Miranda yet, but for Explodet, Bomber, and Biplane the new ball speed feels great. I was initially worried that increasing the ball's speed would lead to an increase of the sloppy "I have no idea how to handle the ball, so I'll just chuck it randomly" playing, but on first impression it seems like the opposite has happened: the faster ball speed rewards good handling/passing, while the additional bounciness and reduced drag punish sloppy handling/passing.

Kudos to the devs.

Evan20000

01-16-2010, 03:40 AM

Very, very, very nice patch. My only concern is getting another 100 community points for the other randa skin. (Will guide writers be given points as suggested in the last patch thread?)

The Repair nerf on Miranda seems annoying and somewhat unnessicary, but I'll live.

r87

01-16-2010, 03:44 AM

Flight 666

01-16-2010, 03:47 AM

Worst of all were those damn skins.
We need things that will add something new to the game. let it be: constructive

The Turretnator

01-16-2010, 03:50 AM

hey, trying to add Altitude to my facebook page, but i use a different email address for FB than i do for Altitude.. So i cant add it because it says it cant associate the two accounts.... am i missing something?

Sarah Palin

01-16-2010, 03:52 AM

A+++. Sooooogood.

I was curious so I did the numbercrunching: here is how fast the planes USED to travel when carrying the ball:

Loopy: 8.97
Biplane: 8.38
Miranda: 8.06
Bomber: 7.83
Explodet: 7.76

Loopy's advantage is clear.

And now:

Biplane: 8.48
Bomber: 8.46
Loopy: 8.43
Explodet: 8.38
Miranda: 8.06

All the planes now run the ball at around the same speed (except Miranda b/c of its maneuverability). Loopy also went from being as good a passer as any plane to being the worst passer in the game. Finally, the increased speed and distance of passing somewhat obviates Loopy's role as a ball runner.

All this adds up to a massive Loopy nerf. I stopped playing Loopy after about 10 minutes and started learning other planes!

Bomber and Whale have been especially buffed, with good HP and great passing they are now key planes. Whale now has a lot more flexibility than just being goalie, and Bomber feels like the quarterback of the team.

Miranda feels like it will be the plane that picks up fumbles and scores them, and there are certainly a lot more fumbles now that the ball moves so fast.

In general the ball zips around so much that your team has a great incentive to have a zone defense and a "wide receiver" type offense. In other words, planes all over the map instead of everyone chasing the ball. This is exactly what everyone wanted when they critiqued ball mode.

Not many maps work well with ball right now but that's ok because ball is finally a mode worth designing maps.

The other changes:

1. Skins don't do it for me, thanks for giving a turn off option.

2. Remote nerf is more than warranted imo. Better to increase cooldown between mines than to increase cooldown from laying a mine to detonating it. I never minded being a victim of the "poopBOOM" strategy. However I recognize that you want to force whales to use it as a "remote" mine, I guess remote players will just have to adjust.

3. Lazor is now fearsome, good buff to an underappreciated perk.

4. Not sure about the nerf to the "Time Anchor Bomb Running Technique," it arguably takes a lot of skill and deserves to be good. (also for the record, my comment in game about MikeSol was a joke.)

I have been very critical of your last two "updates" (making the sounds and ui more scifi, still hoping we get an "old sounds" option), here you did everything right, great job.

Deathblade

01-16-2010, 03:52 AM

Changes to BALL are terrible.

It was better before...please revert.

Also, please revert the Explodet acceleration change.

karterfreak

01-16-2010, 03:53 AM

edit: repair drone nerf is kinda bad for reverse and TA planes, mikesol has a good explanation for this. Edited my post because I misread on the reverse part at first (checked it again to see if i was misreading after testing it again).

Slevin

01-16-2010, 03:54 AM

Love love love love love patch.

Explodet does not feel nerfed to me. I love the faster rockets, and the mine cooldown is incredibly reasonable. It really only keeps you from boosting yourself around, and I love that it doesn't insta-splode on enemies who are behind me. At least in my play style, remote mine just got substantially buffed. And it really feels good to play now.

Oh come on Vi, the time delay between drop/detonate the mine is way too long imo (Remote Mine). Plus, we cant do mine hop anymore :( No offense.. But, SAVE THE WHALE!!!

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/tzu/lowres/tzun428l.jpg

Deathblade

01-16-2010, 03:54 AM

The explodet rocket responsiveness feels off. I cant detonate it immediately their is a delay.

I was blaming the acceleration...but I think it is a det timer change.

Whatever it is, it has really cramped my style.

Snowsickle

01-16-2010, 03:58 AM

eth

01-16-2010, 04:03 AM

Changes to BALL are terrible.

It was better before...please revert.

Also, please revert the Explodet acceleration change.

These sorts of posts piss me off. Can we at least get some reasoning here, instead of just '+1 this'? Most people in this thread have the opinion that the ball change is very good, and they have posted their reasoning - you just say: "it sucks".

Deathblade

01-16-2010, 04:05 AM

These sorts of posts piss me off. Can we at least get some reasoning here, instead of just '+1 this'? Most people in this thread have the opinion that the ball change is very good, and they have posted their reasoning - you just say: "it sucks".

I enjoyed the days when you could join a BALL game and see a few Loopy's and a Miranda or two.

Sarah Palin

01-16-2010, 04:05 AM

Perhaps this will offer some incentive for miranda users to try another perk, as well. When's the last time you saw a miranda play without repair drone?

True, but when's the last time you saw a Loopy without Heavy Armor? It seems these perks dominate for these two planes because of the playing environment, not player choice.

r87

01-16-2010, 04:07 AM

All the planes now run the ball at around the same speed (except Miranda b/c of its maneuverability). Loopy also went from being as good a passer as any plane to being the worst passer in the game. Finally, the increased speed and distance of passing somewhat obviates Loopy's role as a ball runner.

All this adds up to a massive Loopy nerf. I stopped playing Loopy after about 10 minutes and started learning other planes!

Bomber and Whale have been especially buffed, with good HP and great passing they are now key planes. Whale now has a lot more flexibility than just being goalie, and Bomber feels like the quarterback of the team.

Agreeing with this. Bomber went from being a great support plane to a great everything plane.

Loopy went from a great passer and primary ball carrier to a meh passer and a terrible ball carrier. If a loopy tries to take the ball from their own side of the map, they will die before they even get close to scoring range. Loopy is pretty boring to run the ball with...any options you had to try to avoid insta-death due to weak armor have been negated by your inability to flee from attacks.

The only thing that seems to work is having 3-4 loopys in a line chain passing to one another, and obviously this is very vulnerable to failure.

The one good thing to come from this is that from short range scoring is ridiculously easy with ALL planes. Like, pathetically easy. Hard shots are now chip shots.

Oh, also...played with three very good randa players so far. Not one of them has stuck with randa for more than 10 minutes.

This is all regarding ball btw.

Snowsickle

01-16-2010, 04:10 AM

True, but when's the last time you saw a Loopy without Heavy Armor? It seems these perks dominate for these two planes because of the playing environment, not player choice.

I think it should be a goal to have several viable perks for all planes. You're pointing out that other planes have the same issue; I agree. However, I think this is a step in the right direction.

Deathblade

01-16-2010, 04:10 AM

Plane balance seems a lot more even in ball now than TBD (where % loopies goes steadily up as team size increases). Loopies and randas may just need to adjust to their new roles.

Plane balance was fine before.

Planes had roles...what this change did was essentially make every plane as good at Loopy and Miranda role...and made Loopy and Miranda terrible at it.

There's zero reason to play a Loopy or Miranda now. If you think there is, please name them.

Sarah Palin

01-16-2010, 04:12 AM

The one good thing to come from this is that from short range scoring is ridiculously easy with ALL planes. Like, pathetically easy. Hard shots are now chip shots.

Completely agreed, many ball shots on repurposed TBD maps (like the infamous straight shot in Cave) were easy, now they're very very easy. Wait for new maps I guess.

Kuja900

01-16-2010, 04:12 AM

I was blaming the acceleration...but I think it is a det timer change.

Whatever it is, it has really cramped my style.

Mine as well, any word on if this was intentional?

r87

01-16-2010, 04:13 AM

Quote feature isn't working but:

"Loopy and Miranda definitely feel a bit left out in the new ball but

1) they may just need to adjust to their new roles

2) Loopy and randa are imo the KEY planes in TBD, so I don't mind at all if they're a bit underpowered in ball. "

The game types should be mutually exclusive. You cannot justify a plane being crippled in ball simply because it is good in another game type.

Sarah Palin

01-16-2010, 04:14 AM

ROFL I deleted that post, but apparently not before two people were able to quote two different edit versions of it :rolleyes: this thread is moving too fast!

mikesol

01-16-2010, 04:14 AM

I feel that the reverse/TA nerf to repair drone is more than warranted. Mirandas got much more use out of repair drone than other planes do because they could simply reverse-idle in a corner until they were back to full HP. Combined with having the best escape abilities of any plane in the game, this essentially meant that you had to gib a miranda player to kill him or he was going to sit in a corner until he was at full life again. While this is still possible, you genuinely have to run away from the action, rather than reversing behind the most convenient piece of terrain.

Perhaps this will offer some incentive for miranda users to try another perk, as well. When's the last time you saw a miranda play without repair drone?

I feel you're missing the difference.

First off, miranda is fairly slow - especially with the bomb (it can't even fly up to the top of the map from the bottom without taking a break).

Secondly, miranda has very little hp. The combination of this means the miranda HAS to flee and try and hide / dodge while it regains hp.

Third, time anchor does not have the ability to simply "run away." Trickster you can turn around and flee and then repair. Anchor you keep going in the same direction. The repair thing combined with the 35% increase in anchor time with bomb makes bombing ridiculously difficult if I take any hits. Now I'm willing to concede that I've never tried flexi wings or heavy armor significantly but I feel it totally ruins repair for the Miranda.

Edit: PS I'm talking about anchor. Trickster + repair is still completely viable.

The Turretnator

01-16-2010, 04:16 AM

OkAY, so i synched my facebook account with my Altitude. Added the FB Alti app to my page, granted it full authorization, etc... yet my community points are still not showing up... what the heck?!?! Me wants Zeebwa Pwane!

SOLVED. had to reboot computer. im all zebra-y now

eth

01-16-2010, 04:19 AM

Sarah Palin

01-16-2010, 04:21 AM

you see the numbers of Loopy for carrying the ball are the lowest in relation to the other planes(never mind the fact that loopy is fastest plane)

As I numbercrunched, what it all adds up to is that all planes carry the ball at nearly the same speed (except randa), with differences so small they're prolly unnoticeable. I assume this was a design goal of the patch because the numbers line up pretty nice.

r87

01-16-2010, 04:21 AM

The only issue I see with loopy/miranda/biplane is that they in larger games become more or less obsolete, but that has more to do with heavy planes scaling a lot better with player size.

See: all public servers

poofighter24

01-16-2010, 04:32 AM

So before there wasn't a problem with miranda selfpass; there wasn't a problem with ball games being 99% loopies(and 1 miranda to self-pass to the goal)? Plane balance was pretty obviously NOT fine before the patch.

You know, you don't HAVE to fly around with the ball - you can pick it up, pass it forward, and press F. Loopy still has 240 _tracking_ DPS, how is that NOT good? I mean I don't get your line of reasoning here - you see the numbers of Loopy for carrying the ball are the lowest in relation to the other planes(never mind the fact that loopy is fastest plane) and say "**** THIS". Did you even try playing loopy after the patch? Because I did, and it is still stupid good DPS, and it can still carry just fine as long as you don't try to afterburn across the map with the ball.

The only issue I see with loopy/miranda/biplane is that they in larger games become more or less obsolete, but that has more to do with heavy planes scaling a lot better with player size.

Have you ever, like, played competitive ball before? Are you really suggesting that cruising around whilst carrying the ball firing inane amounts of missiles and basically ratio whoring while being exceptionally slow holding the ball is good for the game?

In any case, I found the plane for me. I'm just going to ratio whore with recoilless biplane and ace instincts while completely ignoring loose balls. The bright side is that if a loopy happens to be carrying the ball towards my goal, I can reverse direction, afterburn and chase him down, and blow him up before he can score. That's how slow loopies are after the nerf.

Deathblade

01-16-2010, 04:40 AM

Deathblade

01-16-2010, 04:42 AM

CCN

01-16-2010, 04:45 AM

As someone who plays a lot of ball, and played it at 4/5 planes (bomber can DIAF).

It seems to me you listened to one person on ball. Either
A) People who don't play it
B) Someone who plays it as Loopy

Given this forum, if you listened from here its generally people who don't play ball or Maimer who plays loopy 110% of the time.

.7 seconds is ridiculously long. .3 or .4 if you wanted to go this route and still provide something but right now the paper plane isn't even fast. However I will give it a shot as you seem to have tried to put more emphasis on a striker.

My real grief is charged shot can't hit same plane twice. That is a huge part of the skill ceiling on that plane type, and our main way to do ANY damage to explos. Reduce the damage on a charged shot, reduce the power of F up, instead of all those noob friendly things that make the Miranda seem overpowered you take away the hard to do, situational, positional skill shot.
I think this was by far the wrong way to nerf the plane, peoples grief with it is at medium skill level people can do fairly well with it (compared to biplane), so reducing its ability at middle skill (FUP, reduce warp range after charged shot .7 seconds?) or damage some other way.

CCN

01-16-2010, 04:47 AM

I feel you're missing the difference.

First off, miranda is fairly slow - especially with the bomb (it can't even fly up to the top of the map from the bottom without taking a break).

Secondly, miranda has very little hp. The combination of this means the miranda HAS to flee and try and hide / dodge while it regains hp.

Third, time anchor does not have the ability to simply "run away." Trickster you can turn around and flee and then repair. Anchor you keep going in the same direction. The repair thing combined with the 35% increase in anchor time with bomb makes bombing ridiculously difficult if I take any hits. Now I'm willing to concede that I've never tried flexi wings or heavy armor significantly but I feel it totally ruins repair for the Miranda.

Edit: PS I'm talking about anchor. Trickster + repair is still completely viable.
The problem is you practised and got good at a hard plane, and so its easier to nerf you then to practice a counter. Anchors give up a lot to bomb that well (killing ability, holding map area). This patch is not balanced.

nobodyhome

01-16-2010, 04:47 AM

Have you ever, like, played competitive ball before? Are you really suggesting that cruising around whilst carrying the ball firing inane amounts of missiles and basically ratio whoring while being exceptionally slow holding the ball is good for the game?

In any case, I found the plane for me. I'm just going to ratio whore with recoilless biplane and ace instincts while completely ignoring loose balls. The bright side is that if a loopy happens to be carrying the ball towards my goal, I can reverse direction, afterburn and chase him down, and blow him up before he can score. That's how slow loopies are after the nerf.

Yes, if a plane is chasing you as you are holding a ball, he SHOULD be able to easily kill you. This forces you to pass more often.

You know. Do that thing that we call uh, teamwork.

r87

01-16-2010, 04:49 AM

It seems to me you listened to one person on ball. Either
A) People who don't play it
B) Someone who plays it as Loopy

Given this forum, if you listened from ehre its generally people who don't play ball.

Agree. Loopy is now useful for defense (ace instincts is pretty lol now) or a scoop and shoot close to the goal.

Miranda is...well...lol.

poofighter24

01-16-2010, 04:59 AM

Yes, if a plane is chasing you as you are holding a ball, he SHOULD be able to easily kill you. This forces you to pass more often.

You know. Do that thing that we call uh, teamwork.

Is this a serious post?

nesnl

01-16-2010, 05:05 AM

I want to respond to two points in this thread:

The first is regarding loopy and miranda in ball. Some people are saying that it is now near "impossible to start on your end of the map and carry it to the other end to shoot." My question is should this even be a possibility? The new mode of ball promotes passing. I think that this will increase the overall skill of the game. I hate to relate this to real world stuff, but name any sport where you can carry the ball yourself from one end of the field to the other by yourself without passing and score. Soccer? Football? More passing = more skill. In my opinion I always thought the Ball Hog award was basically Ball mode's equivalent of Kamikaze. Loopy is still viable in ball, just not in the overpowered way. It is still the fastest plane when not holding the ball. This allows a player to get into the action faster and chase down balls the fastest. This is also true of miranda, it is fast and maneuverable allowing it to perform roles in ball that other planes cannot. I think that the whole attitude of "my plane's role WHILE HOLDING THE BALL has changed" needs to go, because holding the ball should be considered a bad thing and passing a good thing.

Second thing I want to address is the miranda repair drone. I think Snowsickle put it best in his explanation. People can argue that it makes bomb running more difficult, but the second most used bomb runner rarely even uses repair drone. A flexi wing biplane doesn't have the luxury of dodging enemies and then getting all its health back. And even if a player chooses to use repair drone on another plane, to achieve even close to the manueverability of the miranda it MUST use its afterburners. If I could just fly in circles at normal speed on a biplane with the bomb and effectively juke out an entire team then I would do it. The repair drone nerf is surely a nerf to TA but it effectively brings it closer to the level of other bomb runners. Just as Snowsickle said that all perks should be viable on a plane, all planes should be viable in some sense for different roles. I think that the game should be balanced so that to be a competitive team you don't to either get a really good TA user or settle for a flexi biplane. More planes should ideally be able to bomb and those planes that are bombing should have some type of balance across the board, not some blatant advantage to one plane or another.

-Maimer

r87

01-16-2010, 05:07 AM

nesnl, what is your in-game name?

---------------------------------------

My name in game that I am most remembered by is: Maimer

Currently I am going by the name: Gankatron

AtomikPi

01-16-2010, 05:16 AM

So after having some time to simmer, the only two major issues that I think are unwarranted are (1) the lay mine --> detonate cooldown nerf - the other three are fine I think and (2) the time anchor/reverse nerf - again, the other miranda nerfs are more than sufficient. Also, (3) I encountered the difficulties with missiles detonating incorrectly that Kuja described.

mikesol

01-16-2010, 05:17 AM

Second thing I want to address is the miranda repair drone. I think Snowsickle put it best in his explanation. People can argue that it makes bomb running more difficult, but the second most used bomb runner rarely even uses repair drone. A flexi wing biplane doesn't have the luxury of dodging enemies and then getting all its health back. And even if a player chooses to use repair drone on another plane, to achieve even close to the manueverability of the miranda it MUST use its afterburners. If I could just fly in circles at normal speed on a biplane with the bomb and effectively juke out an entire team then I would do it. The repair drone nerf is surely a nerf to TA but it effectively brings it closer to the level of other bomb runners. Just as Snowsickle said that all perks should be viable on a plane, all planes should be viable in some sense for different roles. I think that the game should be balanced so that to be a competitive team you don't to either get a really good TA user or settle for a flexi biplane. More planes should ideally be able to bomb and those planes that are bombing should have some type of balance across the board, not some blatant advantage to one plane or another.

-Maimer

1) Why does it matter what the second most used bomb runner uses? Should it matter? No. Each plane is separate. I don't see why it matters that biplane uses flexi wings instead of repair. It seems silly to even try and associate it like that.

2) A flexi wing biplane can turn fast, has more hp, and can move quicker. The miranda takes a ton of skill to be able to dodge and zip around and I still run into walls constantly. All planes are not equal - nor should they be equal.

3) All perks being viable on every plane seems like wishful thinking. Honestly why would rubber hull be that good on certain planes? Why should I wield ace instincts as a bomb runner? There are certain perks that go with certain abilities. Why do most loopies use heavy armor? It's because that's the best perk for most play styles. This repair nerf seems like it was more designed to help the issue of 1v1 randa. However, that doesn't really effect that very much. The thing it does do, is very strongly effect the bombing abilities - which already has gotten a big nerf from the 35% slower anchor.

A Nipple

01-16-2010, 05:20 AM

bombers is still sweet, i like splodet now find it more stable actually and more agile very nice! ignore the skins complaints there a good gimmick to get the word of the game out well thought out!! great incentive!

only complaints, time anchor i thin shud be able to regen whilst anchoring however at a slower rate and other one remotes could explode quicker!

On the whole great job!

Love nip =]

ryebone

01-16-2010, 05:20 AM

I hate to relate this to real world stuff, but name any sport where you can carry the ball yourself from one end of the field to the other by yourself without passing and score.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yba-exnn9pQ

I couldn't resist. If i get an infraction for failing to contribute, so be it.

Varonth

01-16-2010, 05:21 AM

Second thing I want to address is the miranda repair drone. I think Snowsickle put it best in his explanation. People can argue that it makes bomb running more difficult, but the second most used bomb runner rarely even uses repair drone. A flexi wing biplane doesn't have the luxury of dodging enemies and then getting all its health back. And even if a player chooses to use repair drone on another plane, to achieve even close to the manueverability of the miranda it MUST use its afterburners. If I could just fly in circles at normal speed on a biplane with the bomb and effectively juke out an entire team then I would do it. The repair drone nerf is surely a nerf to TA but it effectively brings it closer to the level of other bomb runners. Just as Snowsickle said that all perks should be viable on a plane, all planes should be viable in some sense for different roles. I think that the game should be balanced so that to be a competitive team you don't to either get a really good TA user or settle for a flexi biplane. More planes should ideally be able to bomb and those planes that are bombing should have some type of balance across the board, not some blatant advantage to one plane or another.

-Maimer

Not everyone uses a randa as a bombrunner.
I find it pretty insane to nerf one perk, based on the abillity of another perk.

If heavy armor would give 100 health, but if you fly a loopy you just get 20 health, there would be too much whines to moderate for you.

Or, if you are using flexi wings on a biplane you get the normal bonus.
But if you also have reverse thrust, then flexi wings looses 50% of its bonus.

Or the repair drones won't repair when afterburning... but if you are using the altfire of miranda, it won't repair either... I hope you see the problem there.

r87

01-16-2010, 05:22 AM

That is good to know. You are good at ball so I know that you actually have a clue what you are talking about.

My issue is that the changes have not really benefited anything. In the past, the general idea was to get the ball to your fastest / most agile planes, and they would pass it up the map.

Now, a bomber or whale is just as (well, very nearly just as) fast as a loopy with the ball. Are. You. Kidding?

The loopy and miranda are supposed to be the speedsters. They have ****ty armor, their only defense is being able to outmaneuver an opponent long enough to either a) pass or b) score. This new handicap (self pass is a whole nother issue) is making it very difficult for either of these planes to exploit what should be their greatest strength at ball.

matattack

01-16-2010, 05:24 AM

Great patch so far. I find that the Miranda self pass not being allowed does seem to balance the game of ball better..however, after spectating mikesol, I find the repair issue fairly depressing not only because of his inability to repair after warping, but also because he barelly has enough energy to push forward after anchoring. He cannot move fast, and he can't heal..talk about quite the open target? I actually was not expecting an anchor nerf as it seems like few can play it effectively.
Now I'm sure u all are thinking well, that's because Mike is on my team, however, I find that even not coming from a friend, it shouldn't be hard to see that it seems if an anchor randa picks up the bomb, he is slow and rather easy to kill no?
Next is the explodet. This plane I find fairly nerfed. Rockets moving slightly faster seems somewhat uneccessary as it seems we could always pick people off from miles away, now it's even easier!?. As mentioned quite numerously, when being chased by any plane closely, we remotes are in trouble. On1x/ObeighsNoOne and I played 1v1 his loopy vs my explo. The test was for him to follow me closely and see how fast I could kill him. Guess what. It took 6 remote mines for me to take down a trailing loopy! xD
my suggestion is to being back the auto detonate if someone runs into it but with a closer range for it to impact. I find that at least if someone is trailing u from a close range u have the opportunity to push them, if you accurately
angle ur..butt :D
overall tho, great work lamster and Karl :)

ObeighsNo0ne

01-16-2010, 05:39 AM

I too have played some ball matches with top tier players as well as a few quality tbd scrims vs IL since the patches implementation, and have a few things to say with regards to the new remote mine xplo. For all who don’t know my in-game username is X, or more recently, ON1X. I’ll go about healthy criticism by looking at each change in turn.

Explodet Remote Mine:
1.) no longer collides with planes, complete control of detonation just like rockets
Love this! As many have said before me in posts elsewhere, detonation by collision may have encouraged spam, and more importantly a negative trait, caused users to have their mine explode both unknowingly and and sometimes unwillingly. Collision off addresses this problem head on, enriching xplo gameplay by enabling users 100% control over detonation.
+1 to collision off

2.) increased cooldown (0.35 -> 0.66)
This nerf doesn’t bother me at all. It’s understandable that measures were taken to ease xplo-OP discussion rage/further balance the game. Cooldown between mines addresses key concerns about xplo players simply spamming ‘D’ in the face of enemies who get too close. I tinker with planes other than xplo and would have to agree that being spammed in the face is not so fun.
+1 to cooldown

3.) increased minimum release->detonation time (0.15 -> 0.30)
The increase to release -> detonation time also works to tune down spammability of ‘D’, but imo it is a bit too long. I say this for 1 reason only: The combination of ‘collision off mines’ and increased release-> detonation time creates a situation where enemy planes who manage to get close behind remote users have an epic advantage. In such a circumstance, ejected mines in self defense will now pass through the faces of trailing enemies because of ‘collision off’, and detonation time from release is so far off that the intended defensive mine’s explosion hits the enemy plane in the rear, if at all. This in effect just propels the enemy plane closer to the remote users rear, as experienced play allows one to stunt the additional speed by applying the brakes. Combined with the xplo’s inherent slow speed, the remote user is surely dead after having received the full brunt of an attack they knew was coming but had no weaponry to prevent. This is a problem imo.
-1 to 0.30 seconds release ->detonation time

4.) reduced blast radius by 4%
Not really noticeable to me, so no complaints here. It makes non-xplo players happy so:
+1 to reduction

5.) Increased rocket acceleration by 10%
Looove this :D I could go on about why, but its fairly obvious. nuff said.
+1 to rocket speed boost

Edit: O yeah, and i like the skins and stuff too ;). Overall great job Lam+Karl.

nobodyhome

01-16-2010, 05:40 AM

CCN

01-16-2010, 05:42 AM

Would like to take this moment to point out undocumented changes in this patch:

1. The join game list now have an X beside hard wall servers and no X for bouncy wall servers. Previously, it was the opposite.

playing ball to stop self abuse pass .3 is short now I see. .7 is too long. .6 is best, it may even allow some skill self pass.

Deathblade

01-16-2010, 06:11 AM

There is definitely a det timer on whale rockets now : /

GGQ

01-16-2010, 06:17 AM

This thread is making my brain hurt. I feel like I might cry soon.

I am not even sure where to begin explaining why I think these changes are good, because it seems so obvious to me.

I'll try pulling out posts individually and responding to them.

The problem is you practised and got good at a hard plane, and so its easier to nerf you then to practice a counter. Anchors give up a lot to bomb that well (killing ability, holding map area). This patch is not balanced.

The problem is that there is not an adequate counter to a well-played TA randa bomber. In a 5v5 league game, a skilled TA bomber changes the dynamics far far too much. I respect the skill it takes to become proficient with TA, I know it isn't easy, and not just everyone is going to be able to do it as well as Mikesol does because not everyone is as good as Mikesol with most planes; he's just a really good player. I understand that a high skill setup like TA should allow for high yield results, but TA was simply too good before this patch. As a member of a TBD team that's generally considered quite strong, I can tell you that when facing different team's playstyles and perk setups, we adjust our own perk setups and playstyles, but our general gameplan remains much the same. The only time it changed was when the other team was using a good TA bomber. It changed the entire focus and goal of the team, every perk had to be chosen to try to stop it, and everyone's focus was on ignoring the rest of the team and killing that TA before even thinking about anything else. If Sammich (SS at the time) was able to give Mikesol a little more support, he would have been literally unstoppable. No other single plane setup in the game could have such an impact on our gameplan. It was overpowered. I remember in an old thread suggesting that the reason for this was that TA was just as effective while carrying the bomb; while every other plane suffered a hit to its maneuverability while bomb-running, TA was just as maneuverable with the bomb. This seems to have been addressed with the +35% thing, which I love. Levels the playing field for bomb-running imo. As for the 'no repair while TA or reversing', I never thought of that as a possible change, and as I said earlier, in TBD or Ball, I'm not sure it's necessary. From Snowsickle post, though, it's possible that this change was made with 1dm in mind, where randas with repair was by far the best choice before patch. Maybe it's a little harsh to give randa nerfs for so many different game modes at once, but maybe the fact that different aspects of the randa were considered overpowered in three different game modes (TA bombing in TBD, repair while reversing back and forth behind an obstacle in 1dm, and self-pass in Ball) indicates that randa was, in fact, deserving of the nerfs. Try it out for a while longer and then see what you think.

edit- to make this clearer, I agree with previous posters that perhaps TA should be allowed to repair while using TA, but again, it's a new patch let's try it and see

I'm thinking he is basing his conclusion off of the Football map, where it basically screams "OMG USE LOOPY".

All of this DPS he is stating is lulzy in any actual map.

You clearly are misguided in your thinking here. Forgive me, but might I suggest that you are bad? Eth is one of the best loopies in the game, and he knows his **** when it comes to loopy. Loopy dps is not, in fact, lulzy on any actual map. If you think so, you are doing it wrong. Read his guide and learn how to use cover and emp properly to get into a proper position to kill something with a burst of rockets and you will start to understand what DPS (damage per second, if you're wondering) has to do with it. I suspect from your post that you don't respect the significance of chuting ur enemyz plains in Ball mode. I suspect that you are a bouncy-wall ball baddie, who flies his loopy around ignoring the most central elements of Altitude (namely zone control, dogfighting, and skilled flying) and insisting that you only need to focus on passing and scoring in Ball mode. That isn't the case. Get better at the game in general, and you will find that you are better at using the loopy in Ball. Or maybe you are the best at Ball ever and I should just shut up because I'm a noob. Who knows.

It seems to me you listened to one person on ball. Either
A) People who don't play it
B) Someone who plays it as Loopy

A is just lol, it's clear that you know that Karlam listen to people who play ball, so you are obviously relying on B to make your point, and it's obvious that you are referring to Maimer. Do you really think that Karlam just listen to what Maimer says and then do it? And even if that was true, do you really think that Maimer would get randa self-pass nerfed so that loopy could be the best... and then make every other plane better at carrying and throwing the ball? Don't be silly.

See: all public servers

This was in reference to the fact that large servers favour heavy planes like Explo and bomber over the light planes, and this quotation points out that most public ball servers are large. Might I point out that this is a problem with the servers themselves, not with plane balance? 5,6,7-a-side are vastly superior to 10-a-side anyways, so let's balance around the smaller servers and just change the 20man servers to 14man max so they can properly reflect plane balance. Honestly, if you are going to play 20man servers, plane balance is hardly relevant anyways. Spam ftw.

Sarah Palin

01-16-2010, 06:19 AM

I think that the whole attitude of "my plane's role WHILE HOLDING THE BALL has changed" needs to go, because holding the ball should be considered a bad thing and passing a good thing.

I agree completely and this is the adjustment that some people need to get. Loopy is now a receiver, the idea is to get into the endzone fast, catch a cherry pick shot and score a goal. Loopy cannot run the ball, it is a paper plane.

Loopy dominated the previous version because it was the fastest plane, fastest ball runner and the ball was hardly faster than loopy itself over long distances (because of drag).

Thus the best way to score was to have a loopy based running offense. In the new patch the best way to score is to have a DIVERSITY based PASSING offense.

This is exactly what ball needed to give it a higher skill ceiling AND make it more fun.

My issue is that the changes have not really benefited anything. In the past, the general idea was to get the ball to your fastest / most agile planes, and they would pass it up the map.

Now, a bomber or whale is just as (well, very nearly just as) fast as a loopy with the ball. Are. You. Kidding?

The loopy and miranda are supposed to be the speedsters.

Why would a whale run the ball, anyway, ever? It can throw the ball TWICE. AS. FAST. :p

You're not supposed to hold the ball or run it. You're supposed to pass it. Loopies still have a role because they can get downfield faster and get passed TO by a good passER like whale or bomber.

The planes now have more or less the same running speed, to emphasize that it's the passing game you should be focusing on.

A bomber or whale may be able to run the ball downfield in 5 seconds about as far as loopy... and all that downfield progress will be undone by ONE upfield pass by an enemy bomber or biplane.

nesnl

01-16-2010, 06:30 AM

1) Why does it matter what the second most used bomb runner uses? Should it matter? No. Each plane is separate. I don't see why it matters that biplane uses flexi wings instead of repair. It seems silly to even try and associate it like that.

2) A flexi wing biplane can turn fast, has more hp, and can move quicker. The miranda takes a ton of skill to be able to dodge and zip around and I still run into walls constantly. All planes are not equal - nor should they be equal.

3) All perks being viable on every plane seems like wishful thinking. Honestly why would rubber hull be that good on certain planes? Why should I wield ace instincts as a bomb runner? There are certain perks that go with certain abilities. Why do most loopies use heavy armor? It's because that's the best perk for most play styles. This repair nerf seems like it was more designed to help the issue of 1v1 randa. However, that doesn't really effect that very much. The thing it does do, is very strongly effect the bombing abilities - which already has gotten a big nerf from the 35% slower anchor.

It matters what planes are used for the same purposes because ideally they should be equally balanced because they are playing the same role. I am not saying that they should do the same thing, but rather their abilities are on the same playing field. I think a lot of the complaints are trying to make an argument that repair has been totally negated, however, it still works just in a lesser capacity. I haven't seen it in action, maybe it was too much, but I think that overall this type of change was needed. You say that all planes are not equal, but I think we should strive to create a more equal playing field rather than a "so what if my plane is a lot better than any other plane at running bombs" attitude. Also, I am not saying that all perks are going to be viable all the time. I realize that that is a bad way to look at it, but if one is so blatantly better than the others then I feel it should be addressed, which it was in this case.

That is good to know. You are good at ball so I know that you actually have a clue what you are talking about.

My issue is that the changes have not really benefited anything. In the past, the general idea was to get the ball to your fastest / most agile planes, and they would pass it up the map.

Now, a bomber or whale is just as (well, very nearly just as) fast as a loopy with the ball. Are. You. Kidding?

The loopy and miranda are supposed to be the speedsters. They have ****ty armor, their only defense is being able to outmaneuver an opponent long enough to either a) pass or b) score. This new handicap (self pass is a whole nother issue) is making it very difficult for either of these planes to exploit what should be their greatest strength at ball.

I realize that the old way of playing ball was to get the ball to a loopy and just let him run with it. This is why most ball games consisted of a huge amount of loopys. Even in more competitive games a team might field 1 or 2 other planes, such as an explodet for defense, but overall it really made no sense to play anything but loopy or maybe miranda for breakaway goals.

I think that we should all focus on how the new way of playing ball will be. Instead of trying to fit the new changes into the old methods, try to look at how new methods will work. Like I said before, passing to me is the skill in ball. Loopy / Miranda can still outrun the other planes when not holding the ball. The whole point of the changes was to allow the slower planes to be able to create great passing opportunities to other planes that are moving up field with their speed. Think of football. You might have a slow quarterback, but he can still rocket the ball up to a speedy wide receiver.

So the greatest strengths of the planes are still there, but just in different capacities. The slower planes can now throw the ball with incredible speed to the faster planes who are going to be moving up field. Even in the old ball I rarely ever held the ball. I might score 6 goals in a game and still have a total time of only 15 seconds of holding the ball. So I think that you should give these new changes a chance. Instead of thinking how you can out do a team by holding the ball, think of how you can move the ball up field by holding the ball as little time as possible.

And just as a note, I have been around this game for a while, maybe not as long as some of the old timers, but long enough to see quite a few patches. A lot of times people get set in their ways and when a change comes along they are so quick to jump and say that it's bad. However, in the past the changes mostly work out for the best and people adjust to what is a better game style. I say just give this a chance and wait a week or so. If you still think there is a problem then let's hash it out then.

CCN

01-16-2010, 06:31 AM

A is just lol, it's clear that you know that Karlam listen to people who play ball, so you are obviously relying on B to make your point, and it's obvious that you are referring to Maimer. Do you really think that Karlam just listen to what Maimer says and then do it? And even if that was true, do you really think that Maimer would get randa self-pass nerfed so that loopy could be the best... and then make every other plane better at carrying and throwing the ball? Don't be silly.

While I agree that anchor was too strong, esp. on your analysis this may push it too far only time will tell.

This ball thing however is..
To start everyone could see ball needed changes when you have 98% of the planes ebing loopy something is wrong. Was self pass imba? It was too strong, but it gave randa a purpose. Now what does a randa do in ball? I wasn't making a point based on A or B, I literally believe they only listened to tbders or loopies. Maimer defo comes to mind as he is closer to them then most, but you do get a lot ball loopy whiners who couldn't get a 1/2 kd ratio in tbd complaining. Their sample of who to listen to in ball is obviously bad (due to the mass of loopies with half built basics) and I hope that as the plane range balances out they can get better advice on it.

I (reasonably I feel) consider myself a good ball player who plays 4 planes in ball, and from my perspective it looks like loopy players got the best side of it. There are bombers (e.g. Ryguy) who routinely go 26-0 and make a tough defence. Or whales who go 26-3, or Biplanes who can outmaneuver loopies (e.g wiseguy) but you still see so few of these other planes. Why? Because they are harder to play. If you plan to make the ball type good for people who have half built fundamentals then this is a good nerf, otherwise you're merely over punishing a plane because the masses don't like it.

TLDR (may of rambled):
I believe Lam listened to both A and B. This sample is biased by noobs complaining. Other viable planes not used due to skill necessary. Changing the gametype based on noobs wants is not good (unless you want ball to be the safe haven of just noobs). Hopefully if we get more planes in the mix the voices that the developers have to listen to is more wide and we can get a further balance change.

Slevin

01-16-2010, 07:21 AM

So let me get this right...

You are saying Loopy and Miranda were overpowered...while you claim their counters had no role.

GJ

All he try to say is for all of you loops ppl, stop bitching about loops being a weak plane as it is already good as it is? meh, i cant speak english well

Smushface

01-16-2010, 07:23 AM

On a side note, I have a concern about the implementation of patches.

With all this dispute about the pros and cons of balance items, there needs to be some sort of beta testing for balance patches. Instead of implementing patches onto live servers and having a "wait and see" mentality, there should be some level of testing and discussion before the changes go live.

I'm sure it would not be hard to find plenty of willing testers for new patches. Maybe incorporate community points as a reward for participating in beta testing?

I say this not to insult the developers, but as a general suggestion to the progression of this game. Cheers.

r87

01-16-2010, 07:38 AM

After having played for several hours with some of the better ball players out there ( http://i46.tinypic.com/25fovmf.jpg ), I feel like we have reached some general conclusions about how this patch affects ball. If any of them want to chime in with their own opinions, feel free.

1) The miranda is no longer useful in its old capacity. A good player can still get some results with it, but it's pretty sketchy. I don't play miranda, but virtually everyone who uses it as their primary plane is not amused. They can articulate their grievances better than I can.

2) Maps need to be reworked to accommodate ridiculous shot power. We are currently in a football map scoring half court shots with a loopy. This is the most egregious example, but the new shot range of even the weakest planes is just plain laughable.

3) Something about loopys sucking, I forget. They don't suck, but my god it is annoying to climb uphill with the ball.

4) Kill ball_woods. With fire.

5) Did I mention the maps (especially the smaller ones and ones with wide open shot arcs around the goal) need some work?

6) I just made a half court shot with a loopy on ball_football. I am all that is man.

r87

01-16-2010, 07:49 AM

ryebone

01-16-2010, 07:53 AM

With all this dispute about the pros and cons of balance items, there needs to be some sort of beta testing for balance patches. Instead of implementing patches onto live servers and having a "wait and see" mentality, there should be some level of testing and discussion before the changes go live.

I will strongly +1 this. As most of us seem to have forgotten, myself included, Altitude is no longer a beta game; it's on the market, available to a paying consumer. Pushing out untested patches nowadays is probably an inappropriate way to go about updating Altitude. In the past, we knew from the start that the game was a development stage, and that we were subject to any changes the developers wanted to put in. But now, the customers have the right to a finished product, with any updates being focus-group-approved. I'm confident we have a core of players willing to do this (the ones who make the most reasoned balance arguments anyway), so I don't see how it would be difficult to implement.

Stormich

01-16-2010, 08:38 AM

Huuuuge patch, I love the ball tweaks and the miranda bounce nerf. I miss my mine hoping though. I guess I'll have to get used to it. Thanks for doing such a huge update.

TRUEPAiN

01-16-2010, 09:28 AM

Regarding loopys: (Ohh I forget to mention, most of us were playing on random for much of the session, to test everything out.)

I play loopy. I like the loopy. I tried the other planes...I don't like them. I like going fast. I am too retarded to figure out time anchor, so loopy is what I use.

With that said, this patch made me :( at first. Now, I am still pretty :(, but it's not as bad as originally thought.

Harmonica is right (though none of you heard him yelling at us for an hour), the game is much more focused on team play now. Shot speed makes up for a loss of carrying speed, but it is still very boring to have a plane moving so slowly. The adrenaline rush isn't really there when you are watching grandpa bomber pass your sleek red loopy on the highway just cuz you have a ball in your trunk.

Regarding bombers:

So basically, after having played with very good players, the game appears reasonably balanced for everything except the miranda and the bomber. The bomber, you ask? Yes. Stick some flexy wings on a bomber and it is a beast at running the ball. It's like an old loopy on crack.

Now, keep in mind that was experiment was run with very skilled players. I have a suspicion that things are slightly more chaotic on the public servers (read: they are).

I like the high speeds as well..

Especially weaving through those cave rocks like a hero while all the bad guys chase you.. then after all the weaving through chaos, you see a familiar face emerge from the smokes! then just as you're about to die, you lob a fadeaway pass that all hope relys on to your friend for the hawt score :D

Memories.. :'(

I don't know, the ball physics can be salvaged if you increase the width of ball maps by I dunno.. 4000 - 8000 pixels? and make a few alterations?

While the slower/higher speeds of ball carrying does somewhat motivate passing, It doesn't relinquish a rambo easily sniping the goal from halfway across the map right now.

Personally, I felt the ball physics prior to this patch were perfect. I think it was one of those situations things were you could say, don't fix what isn't broken.

Just saying when ball matches were as competitive and intense and team orientated as they were prior, it didn't seem like the ball physics needed or wanted to be changed.

Currently, "dribbling" or clearing the ball is nonexistent.

It definitely encourages team passing, but unless you're a straight G with all the turbo in the world. There is no hope of you retrieving something you shot out without it reaching conflict.

With this, there is no Michael Jordan situations.. you're the only one left, where you can bounce it, cross 2 guys, kill the guard, and shot for 3 and win the game.

I guess we'll have to wait for our teams to respawn now, or find new ways to run it across the map, or just forget all about that and be forced to work together in every dire situation.

You can however beam it across the floor with ease! ..and let your team regroup with the time I suppose, unless it's a map like ball_maze, or ball_lostcity, in which your bounce pass it probably going to hit a random piece of debris or void space and make a perfect vertical pass for the opposing team to pick up, or your own team to pick up, but then who knows. It may just ricochet 3 times into the goal.

Exciting!

I suppose the same goes for hitting the rim. Ollie-oops and rebounds are really struggling. Once the ball hits the rim, it rockets straight towards the ceiling, or vice-versa.

But then again.. teamwork right :D

Loopy is my plane, and I may have to learn to fly something else..

I was carrying the ball, and obviously I felt like a frail 9 month pregnant explodit when I had the ball..

I tried dribbling to move fast and dodge some damage..

However, had little hope of catching what I launched in time to make my turn or potential pass to my teammate.

Which is rather an issue.. Unless again you're team is magnificent, can perfectly pass the ball 3-4 consecutive times, without anyone getting killed or missing the ball.

The ball will end up on the ground, and in those times you should be able to swoop it and carry it out back to your team.

Trying to dribble is just risky risky business

Yes no, maybe so? I mean, you can do some sick bounces to yourself -yes, but depending on the map, and just the all the little factors, tough coconuts man.

But then again.. TEAMWORK!!

Regardless of how hulk I am right now because of this update (not really), I look forward to the efforts and change we ballin' ballers will need to make to accomplish "teamwork" and be successful around these cruel depressing times. It really shouldn't be hard.. sniping is easy -ya?

Just my opinion after playing the patch for a bit, at this point..

Only time will tell..

Anyone's opinion is as good as the next.
+1 beta-testing

please don't bite my head off,

<3 T-PaiN

Element

01-16-2010, 10:23 AM

since the update, i have been have high ping on all of the servers. Also it lags so much it kinda makes the game not fun (weird english). Also its really hard getting skins.

Don't Follow

01-16-2010, 10:27 AM

TRUEPAiN

01-16-2010, 11:32 AM

After playing for awhile, I kinda take back all my comments. It's not bad, and Loopy is still pretty great.

Flyngbanana

01-16-2010, 11:44 AM

The key part of the patch to me was the explo nerf. I've been calling for it for a while but I wanted to see how it would affect me.

My initial impression that it has been nerfed too much. I only just managed a 1 - 1 ratio in a random pub game, and I think I'm fairly competent at explodet. The combination of both nerfs to the cooldown and the minimum release/detonation time makes me think about switching to another plane. I'm vulnerable for a large period of time and I can't remote mine boost anymore :S.

I planned to wait a few more days of trying to play it before I would post so I could properly make a judgement but this nerf seemed extreme.

jeppew

01-16-2010, 12:17 PM

oh let's see:

Laser buff, check.
Everything else nerfed, check.

awesome patch.

Pax

01-16-2010, 12:52 PM

4) Skins annoy me (Although I am glad that you can shut them off). My issue is that I can't tell what color team people are on when they have them on (at least the ones I've seen). In other words, for us color-blind people skins are frustrating and not usable in their current state.

5) The community points thing really bugs me. I have shared this game with all of my friends back in the day. I have posted it on facebook. I have bought the game when it was $20. I've made a significant guide and contributed a lot through suggestions and posts here. I've won a screenshot contest. Yet, despite all of that, I have 1 community point. 1. It just seems unfair / ridiculous to me that I have to go out and spam stuff and that pretty much my only option is figuring out how to abuse the system because I've already done all of the community stuff way back in the day. Yes, I get you want to spread the game. Yes, I get that people need motivation for spreading it. However, there should more things to gain community points. I'm not trying to be stuck up or anything but I feel that I have contributed more than "1 point" to the community.

I totally agree with mikesol here.
Skins are difficult for colorblind people. I need a bit more time to confirm myself that this plane is one of my time or not.

Nevertheless I invited friends to Altitude and did all that facebook stuff. I didn't bought it over steam and I am not using steam.
You need to support your players, who started playing from the early hour.

DiogenesDog

01-16-2010, 12:55 PM

I agree with every word, especially the comunity points...it's horse**** quite frankly... regardless of years of loyalty, gamer-reviewed articles posted, price paid for this game, et cetera, those points are not a reflection of one's community advocacy for the game, but merely a cheesy (almost tacky) marketing ploy.

I can understand where you're coming from, but I think you're looking at it wrong. I'm in a similar boat - I've done a ridiculous amount of stuff to promote this game in the past, and I'm currently at 1 community point.

Key words: IN THE PAST.

it'd be kind of hard to award community points for past actions, and maybe more importantly, wouldn't actually help build the community NOW. if nimbly is bad about awarding points for stuff other than link referrals in the future, I feel like I'll have reason to complain.

I dunno, I'm just trying to imagine the effort it'd take to hunt down all the past efforts and be fair, and I just don't see it being possible. starting with a clean slate from now forward seems like a reasonable move to me that will allow them to focus on stuff that's more important.

macskeptic

01-16-2010, 01:21 PM

The first thing that comes to mind is "where are the non-ball loopy nerfs?".

I agree with the overall notion of the comments on this thread so far: this patch seems to be based almost solely on the trigger happy dual missile loopy newbies.

Haxz

01-16-2010, 02:34 PM

I have a problem.I bought a skin and then went to play on a server.Then i tried puting the skin on.It redirected me to a page listing all the skins.{and it wouldnt let me use it}Somebody help?

wiseguy

01-16-2010, 03:56 PM

I can understand the reason behind each change, and how people felt the loopy was overpowered. I'm not going to debate that right now, that's what the rest of this thread is for.

I'd like to address one issue: massively changing a game that was already pretty darn good. Sure, it might have needed some tweaks to the balance. This totally changes the game, and I'm unhappy about that, regardless of what the particular differences are.

As someone who has spent a lot of time practicing the old plane ball, and help put together a clan that was pretty good at it, I'm fairly annoyed now that we're all starting over learning the new plane ball which really doesn't translate well. Complete change of ball mechanics, as well as changing every plane (hard to learn how to shoot in one and then switch, now that they all do it differently) has really thrown any skill I had out the window.

Yes, I could start over and try to get good again. The point I'm making is that I'm annoyed that I have to do it. Why not an incremental change? Why not take one of these changes, set the percentage differences really low, and see how it works before ramping it up some more if necessary?

In my opinion, making dramatic changes all at once only serves to confuse and annoy people...ball seems to be very chaotic now. Sure, eventually it might sort itself out, but there was no need to do it this way, and I'm unhappy the all-at-once approach was the one chosen.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3424/3192435737_6d81f4bb88.jpg

Kafka

01-16-2010, 04:11 PM

I played for an hour or so, and I now hate the game of ball. The changes, especially to the miranda are atrocious and render it useless.

wiseguy

01-16-2010, 04:27 PM

...

With this, there is no Michael Jordan situations.. you're the only one left, where you can bounce it, cross 2 guys, kill the guard, and shot for 3 and win the game.

I guess we'll have to wait for our teams to respawn now, or find new ways to run it across the map, or just forget all about that and be forced to work together in every dire situation.

I really agree with TPain here. One of my favorite things about ball was how teamwork was important to win games, but how if you were really on fire you could make amazing plays and score the impossible goal with speed, skill, and luck. Since the loopy, the only plane maneuverable enough to dodge missiles and defenders properly, is now totally incapable with the ball, I'm afraid that option has vanished.

This is now TBD, where you have to fly en masse if you want to work as a group, otherwise it's chaos and you have to just hope it lands in friendly hands.

I miss being able to make a play that wasn't just an interception of a crazy bouncing ball.

r87

01-16-2010, 04:54 PM

I really agree with TPain here. One of my favorite things about ball was how teamwork was important to win games, but how if you were really on fire you could make amazing plays and score the impossible goal with speed, skill, and luck. Since the loopy, the only plane maneuverable enough to dodge missiles and defenders properly, is now totally incapable with the ball, I'm afraid that option has vanished.

This is now TBD, where you have to fly en masse if you want to work as a group, otherwise it's chaos and you have to just hope it lands in friendly hands.

I miss being able to make a play that wasn't just an interception of a crazy bouncing ball.

About this:

Having played under the new patch, I saw plenty of amazing shots with the loopy or other planes. These shots were certainly on the more difficult end of what was possible pre-patch. Now they are...average.

The problem is, I did not see much amazing maneuvering to get in position for the shot. The new range is so absurd that a good player can hit a shot from previously unfathomable distances.

The close range maneuvering around the goal has been partially lost due to the combination of speed decreases to the most maneuverable planes and shot power increases for everyone.

Vania

01-16-2010, 04:56 PM

BALL is basically TBD with a ball now...

r87

01-16-2010, 04:57 PM

After playing for awhile, I kinda take back all my comments. It's not bad, and Loopy is still pretty great.

It's not the same though. I'm not suggesting that you can't do anything with loopy now...I scored a ton of goals last night. The issue is that theloopy is...boring...

The new strategy is either (a) scoop a rebound and score or (b) hope all the defenders are dead/not paying attention and launch a bomb from midfield.

There is no more streaking through the defense and getting that clutch goal that your team needs. You are just too slow.

Now with the increased shot power there are other wyas to do that, but they are not - in my opinion - in the spirit of the loopy's design.

[FN]MONXY FIST

01-16-2010, 05:03 PM

It's not the same though. I'm not suggesting that you can't do anything with loopy now...I scored a ton of goals last night. The issue is that theloopy is...boring...

The new strategy is either (a) scoop a rebound and score or (b) hope all the defenders are dead/not paying attention and launch a bomb from midfield.

There is no more streaking through the defense and getting that clutch goal that your team needs. You are just too slow.

Now with the increased shot power there are other wyas to do that, but they are not - in my opinion - in the spirit of the loopy's design.

We get it loopy was your favorite plane and your mad it is no longer the best option in ball. However game balance doesn't care what your favorite plane is.

r87

01-16-2010, 05:08 PM

combat

01-16-2010, 05:43 PM

I'm not mad (well, I was in my first posts, but not he recent ones), and I'm still more than competent with it.

It's just a completely different feel for the plane now, and it seems to be counter intuitive that the fastest plane in the game no longer has any noticeable speed advantage when carrying the ball.

The point is it being the "lightest" plane, small and fast. Extra weight is going to slow that down a lot more than a heavier one.

Lets say you are running in a race, and you being the fastest think you can win. Well, this patch is trying to even things out, lets hand you a 20 lb weight to carry and the big guy only has to carry 5 lbs. I know the analogy is weird but thats the way it works. The big guy is stronger and therefore can throw the weight farther the small guy not so much. See?

gemigemi

01-16-2010, 06:15 PM

Before I say what I have to say about the patch I'll present myself as I'm still a new face on the forums and in the game (Steam noob :P ). So yeah, I'm {arr}Gemi in game and only play ball. I label myself as a "casual-pro" in that I'm definitely no match against the great veteran players such as the guys in {ball}, but I'm still doing well compared to majority of the player base both in goals, passes, guarding and kills.

Today I spent a lot of time on a couple of different servers with {arr}D4rt getting a feeling to the new game mechanics. Half of the day we spent on 10vs10 servers. The experience was absolutely horrible. The huge influx of bombers makes playing an absolutely chaotic mess with no tactics or progression at all. It's horrible. And everyone is saying the same in chat.

Then we moved on to the {arr} ball server where we have a limit of 7vs7. With this player amount the game felt good and possibly even better than before. It was enjoyable to play and you could actually play without having huge explosion walls everywhere.

The conclusion for us was that ball is now unplayable in larger games, but 5vs5 to 7vs7 works well. Each plane also seems playable and has its uses, so none of them is useless or boring to play. I'm not going into great detail for each plane and I'll let the veteran players dabble with the fine tuning discussion. Also, this might change later on when the community has had time to play more with the changes as the favorite planes might change and the nature of the game at the same time.

What I'd suggest personally is to turn all of the official servers to 7vs7. (or max 8vs8 if you want to keep it a bit larger so that you have more slots for the new players to play) Other than the player limitation I don't feel an urgent need for other changes, though when players have had the time to throughly test it all slight changes to other things might be good. Time will tell.

All in all, good job guys, even though there are some negatives at the moment.

Tank

01-16-2010, 06:38 PM

ok... this update is just going to take some getting used to i guess. i dont like the increased cooldown time for remote mines. It just makes mine hopping almost impossible, and makes no difference in battle, because energy consumption makes you wait awhile before releasing another mine anyway. also, another way to earn CP. an in-game way. maybe if you win 10 battles you get one CP? so that it takes forever to get a skin, but it is possible?

r87

01-16-2010, 06:43 PM

Today I spent a lot of time on a couple of different servers with {arr}D4rt getting a feeling to the new game mechanics. Half of the day we spent on 10vs10 servers. The experience was absolutely horrible. The huge influx of bombers makes playing an absolutely chaotic mess with no tactics or progression at all. It's horrible. And everyone is saying the same in chat.

I was also just playing on the arr server. That, combined with playing on the unofficial 7v7 server led me to believe that you are correct. 10v10 is a mess, but the new update does favor 7v7 (maybe 8v8) quite nicely.

Kuja900

01-16-2010, 06:50 PM

I can no longer detonate rockets immediately at planes in my face, is this intended? Their is a slight delay in launching and ability to detonate.

CCN

01-16-2010, 06:59 PM

Maybe the person who runs the ball servers should move them from 10v10 to 7v7 or 8v8?

r87

01-16-2010, 07:16 PM

Maybe the person who runs the ball servers should move them from 10v10 to 7v7 or 8v8?

Would probably need to add one or two servers to make up for the lost spaces as well.

Adding an official hard wall server would be neat too.

(this is coming from a person who loves 10 v 10, btw)

Jayfourke

01-16-2010, 07:37 PM

The unlockable skins are too expensive for anyone who doesn't facebook and stuff like that. I also have no desire to linkspam my online friends and contacts, yet I still want the shark-eye decals. Meh.

lamster

01-16-2010, 07:38 PM

I can no longer detonate rockets immediately at planes in my face, is this intended? Their is a slight delay in launching and ability to detonate.
The rocket timing change was accidental (related to a bug fix on remote mine). It should be fixed in a follow-up patch.

To address one issue that's come up a lot: the planes have always been balanced around 8vs8 dogfighting, as were the latest ball adjustments. As many of you have discovered, the smaller ball games often provide more interesting dynamics than 10v10. We've added more 8v8 and 7v7 servers to reflect this, however it may take some time for the community to transition. We will, of course, continue to support 10v10 servers for those who prefer the mayhem and added chaos there, but those servers will probably never see a lot of diversity in plane choices (e.g. previously these servers were usually 70%+ DF Loopies) because dogfighting capabilities were balanced around smaller games.

AtomikPi

01-16-2010, 07:46 PM

ok... this update is just going to take some getting used to i guess. i dont like the increased cooldown time for remote mines. It just makes mine hopping almost impossible, and makes no difference in battle, because energy consumption makes you wait awhile before releasing another mine anyway.

ORLY? :rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure it makes a major difference because remote went from being great at attacking things in its rear to pretty awful.

Flyngbanana

01-16-2010, 08:30 PM

ORLY? :rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure it makes a major difference because remote went from being great at attacking things in its rear to completely ineffective.

srslywtfisthis10charshiz?

nesnl

01-16-2010, 08:36 PM

After playing remote mine I think that maybe all 4 changes at once might have been too much. I think that important change is that people can no longer mine jump. Mine jumping broke the game fairly badly, so it is important that no matter what change is made that mine jumping is prevented.

I think from reading the posts thus far that a lot of people are complaining that a plane can tailgate them and effectively dodge the mines because they can't be detonated fast enough. Maybe the first change that was made, where mines won't detonate on contact, should be changed back so that they will detonate on contact. This way if a plane is tailgating it will detonate as soon as the mine hits it, but if a plane isn't there there is still that safe guard against mine jumping and the rapid fire spam from mines.

Varonth

01-16-2010, 08:59 PM

The rocket timing change was accidental (related to a bug fix on remote mine). It should be fixed in a follow-up patch.

To address one issue that's come up a lot: the planes have always been balanced around 8vs8 dogfighting, as were the latest ball adjustments. As many of you have discovered, the smaller ball games often provide more interesting dynamics than 10v10. We've added more 8v8 and 7v7 servers to reflect this, however it may take some time for the community to transition. We will, of course, continue to support 10v10 servers for those who prefer the mayhem and added chaos there, but those servers will probably never see a lot of diversity in plane choices (e.g. previously these servers were usually 70%+ DF Loopies) because dogfighting capabilities were balanced around smaller games.

If the game is balanced around dogfighting, why did you take away the abillity of dogfighting for a miranda?
Without repair + altfire a miranda can't really fight in melee range.
We dont have the HP for flexi wings.
We cant use repairdrones.

So we are another plane forced to use heavy armor?

Really, the miranda is the only plane which got a disadvantage on repairdrones when using afterburner AND altfire.

Annihil8r

01-16-2010, 09:00 PM

Hey lamster, I got 120 community points from getting the Facebook app. (100 for installing the app, 20 from people clicking it.) So I bought a zebra skin with it. It showed I bought it, but wouldn't let me use it when I customized my perks. So I tried clicking it again, and it didn't work. After restarting Altitude, it gave me the skin but left me with -80 community points :confused:. Is there any way you could fix that for me?

matattack

01-16-2010, 09:49 PM

poofighter24

01-16-2010, 09:56 PM

After playing numerous hours post-patch, I've come to a conclusion that helped me form a pretty great (imo) analogy for the ball game mode:

Ball is now the Oakland Raiders.

Why, do you ask?

Well, it's because the game is now as dysfunctional and chaotic as the current NFL franchise is in real life. I'll explain the role and real-life corollary of each plane below.

Whale - Jamarcus Russell
Basically immobile when not carrying the ball, can take lots of hits without getting "injured", can launch the ball like a cannon

Loopy - Darrius Heyward-Bey
Basically runs around very quickly and in random directions in hopes that a ball will end up somewhere near him

Biplane - Nnamdi Asomugha
Doesn't have the speed factor of the other planes, but can swat down any ball-carrying plane with ease, especially if that plane is Darrius Heyward-Bey

Bomber (with flexy wings) - Darren McFadden
Suddenly the best ball-carrying plane in the game, has the power (grenades) to blow through anyone in their way and the speed to rival anyone on the team while carrying the ball (still slightly slower than Darrius Heyward-Bey)

Miranda - Kwame Brown
Because Kwame's suck transcends all sports

Now, I'm not asking for the Indianapolis Colts here, but could we at least get the Houston Texans?

Please?

gemigemi

01-16-2010, 09:57 PM

Maybe the person who runs the ball servers should move them from 10v10 to 7v7 or 8v8?
Who's in charge of them?

Would probably need to add one or two servers to make up for the lost spaces as well.
Feel free to use the {arr} server. I'll also get around to adding one or two more asap (tonight or tomorrow) to allow more players to use them. These are good for European players due to a good location and connection, but the US players will probably like US located servers for lower ping.

Adding an official hard wall server would be neat too.
Tbh hard walls don't seem to suit ball very well. I've been testing this a bit and I didn't like the results of ball + hw, which is a bit surprising how much better hw is in other game modes. There's another topic about this though, so lets not start that conversation here. If a lot of players want to, I can add one hw {arr} server too.

nesnl

01-16-2010, 09:59 PM

adjahe

01-16-2010, 10:06 PM

Really, the miranda is the only plane which got a disadvantage on repairdrones when using afterburner AND altfire.

A fair point, imo. The miranda already sacrifices a fair amount in not having a secondary weapon (or at least not one that doesn't require the randa's paper armor to fly through an opponent). If repair was disabled for whales dropping mines or bombers using flak there would be some significant protestation. Also, the repeat hit on bounces being eliminated was unwarranted, I think. It didn't happen all that often, and that was one of the quirks that made miranda unique. Also there are a few players that make that shot intentionally with a lot of success, which was great for the high power but low defense miranda. I really like the laser changes, much needed.

Overall, I like the update. I'm gonna go ahead and agree with Obeighs on his assessment of the whale nerfs. The whole point of remote is being able to detonate whenever you want. The drop to det time leaves whales pretty vulnerable. Also, I forgot who said it, but mine hopping did play and important function for fat whales that were stalled. Afterburn doesn't do as much for them. If you increased the afterburn ability of whale, perhaps stronger acceleration but faster use, then the mine hopping might not be an issue.

Ball changes seem good, my only qualm is that the .7 sec lim on randas afterburn may effect players trying to ditch the ball and simply survive. Perhaps a .7 sec limit on catching the ball after being thrown? Or maybe a bit more even. The decreased drag/increased launch speed in combination with a catch timer would make it difficult to keep up with a thrown ball long enough to catch it again yourself, and would give other players an opportunity for a steal if it was attempted.

Thoughtfully offered for your consideration,
buffalosoldier

r87

01-16-2010, 10:13 PM

Tbh hard walls don't seem to suit ball very well. I've been testing this a bit and I didn't like the results of ball + hw, which is a bit surprising how much better hw is in other game modes. There's another topic about this though, so lets not start that conversation here. If a lot of players want to, I can add one hw {arr} server too.

I agree that HW are not ideal for ball, but they make for a nice change of pace if you want to work on your flying.

poofighter24

01-16-2010, 10:15 PM

poofighter24,

I realize you are not happy with the current patch as you have posted many times, but I am just curious, what would you change about it to make it better? I have a full grasp of the fact that you don't like it, but you don't really offer anything that you think would make it better. Just looking for some constructive suggestions.

-Maimer

There have been numerous suggestions in this thread already, it's just that none of them have been addressed.

- Undo the time anchor and repair drone ubernerfs, it's too much. I don't give a rat's ass about game modes other than ball, so even if it's just for ball I'd be satisfied.
- Make the ball maps bigger. With the ridiculous ball speeds, goals are way too easy.

In addition, undo the stupid communist "all planes fly the same speed with the ball" crap. You and Sarah Palin are offering two arguments that are completely contradicting each other. Palin is saying that planes now have more clearly defined roles, while you are saying that they eliminate the ball-carrier role entirely, since planes now supposedly are all exactly evenly good at carrying the ball. That's false btw, whales and bombers are far and away the best ball carriers now. Anyone else see something wrong with that?

In reality, it does neither of those things. It's just a mess. You are never going to figure out a perfect formula that caters to all game modes of all game sizes, and this patch completely kills the fun of ball in favor of supposedly balancing out TBD. It feels like I'm playing soccer in North Korea.

Herodadotus

01-16-2010, 10:21 PM

nesnl

01-16-2010, 10:29 PM

There have been numerous suggestions in this thread already, it's just that none of them have been addressed.

- Undo the time anchor and repair drone ubernerfs, it's too much. I don't give a rat's ass about game modes other than ball, so even if it's just for ball I'd be satisfied.
- Make the ball maps bigger. With the ridiculous ball speeds, goals are way too easy.

In addition, undo the stupid communist "all planes fly the same speed with the ball" crap. You and Sarah Palin are offering two arguments that are completely contradicting each other. Palin is saying that planes now have more clearly defined roles, while you are saying that they eliminate the ball-carrier role entirely, since planes now supposedly are all exactly evenly good at carrying the ball. That's false btw, whales and bombers are far and away the best ball carriers now. Anyone else see something wrong with that?

In reality, it does neither of those things. It's just a mess. You are never going to figure out a perfect formula that caters to all game modes of all game sizes, and this patch completely kills the fun of ball in favor of supposedly balancing out TBD. It feels like I'm playing soccer in North Korea.

I think that map size is hard for a game like ball. This is because there are many different sizes of games. So a map for a 5v5 ball game would be much different than a 10v10 ball game. I honestly am not a fan of many of the ball maps out there right now anyway. I am working on a new one and I am also working with another community members on adapting his map into a ball map. it's not just as simple as "make bigger maps" because first you need people who make maps.

As for balancing towards TBD, I don't think that this was the case for this patch. A lot of what was done was either done with ball in mind or the whole game in mind. I think that the confusion comes from planes being affected more in larger games, such as 10v10, than in smaller games. The miranda nerfs bring them on a more equal playing field in a smaller game while I can see how it hurts it more in a larger game.

I think that Palin and I are on the same page actually. I think you are making an assumption that their should be a "ball carrier" role. I disagree with that idea entirely. I think the game should be about passing and you have stronger passers and stronger receivers. I see the faster planes being better receivers and therefore better goal scorers. The reverse is true for the slower planes. I have played only a few dozen games so far and I have already seen some ridiculous passes made by explodets and bombers to open loopys at the goal. It's passes like that that make me really like the changes that were made. If you still think that there should be some role where one or two planes carry the ball for extended periods of time then I think you and I will never agree.

Personally, I would like to see it go even further. Back over a year ago (when it was just TBD and FFA) you couldn't even afterburn if you were carrying the bomb. I think it created a higher skilled game because you needed a team to make it across the map as you couldn't just hold the Up arrow and hope to make it to the other side. I would like to see that change in ball so that no plane can afterburn while carrying the ball. That kind of change would truely force a passing game.

poofighter24

01-16-2010, 10:43 PM

I think that map size is hard for a game like ball. This is because there are many different sizes of games. So a map for a 5v5 ball game would be much different than a 10v10 ball game. I honestly am not a fan of many of the ball maps out there right now anyway. I am working on a new one and I am also working with another community members on adapting his map into a ball map. it's not just as simple as "make bigger maps" because first you need people who make maps.

As for balancing towards TBD, I don't think that this was the case for this patch. A lot of what was done was either done with ball in mind or the whole game in mind. I think that the confusion comes from planes being affected more in larger games, such as 10v10, than in smaller games. The miranda nerfs bring them on a more equal playing field in a smaller game while I can see how it hurts it more in a larger game.

I think that Palin and I are on the same page actually. I think you are making an assumption that their should be a "ball carrier" role. I disagree with that idea entirely. I think the game should be about passing and you have stronger passers and stronger receivers. I see the faster planes being better receivers and therefore better goal scorers. The reverse is true for the slower planes. I have played only a few dozen games so far and I have already seen some ridiculous passes made by explodets and bombers to open loopys at the goal. It's passes like that that make me really like the changes that were made. If you still think that there should be some role where one or two planes carry the ball for extended periods of time then I think you and I will never agree.

Personally, I would like to see it go even further. Back over a year ago (when it was just TBD and FFA) you couldn't even afterburn if you were carrying the bomb. I think it created a higher skilled game because you needed a team to make it across the map as you couldn't just hold the Up arrow and hope to make it to the other side. I would like to see that change in ball so that no plane can afterburn while carrying the ball. That kind of change would truely force a passing game.

I have seen those long "passes" too. The majority of the time, they are launched from near mid-field and still manage to go into the hoop because of the ridiculous shot speed. I am talking about smaller games. The smaller the game, the easier it is to make long and ridiculous shots, and the larger the map needs to be.

The "pass a lot, nobody needs to hold onto the ball" theory might sound good on paper, but the fact is that it will only be successful in small games with extremely skilled players. I am not talking about relatively good players like me, I am talking about players that are currently as good as mikesol or GGQ. The ridiculous shot speeds make it impossible to connect the dots from one end of the map to another, and long passes are literally impossible in 10v10.

The fact is, in every single game ever created that involves putting a ball into a goal, there is a "ball carrier" role. In basketball, exceptional ball handlers are scarce and can get to the hoop with ease. In soccer hockey, great passers are useful, but the main way to get from goal A to goal B has always been "carrying" the ball. It's a working formula, and to make ball carriers so useless is going against a strong history of successful sports.

GGQ

01-16-2010, 10:49 PM

Personally, I would like to see it go even further. Back over a year ago (when it was just TBD and FFA) you couldn't even afterburn if you were carrying the bomb. I think it created a higher skilled game because you needed a team to make it across the map as you couldn't just hold the Up arrow and hope to make it to the other side. I would like to see that change in ball so that no plane can afterburn while carrying the ball. That kind of change would truely force a passing game.

I would approve of this in Ball, but not in TBD :).

Sarah Palin

01-16-2010, 10:51 PM

As someone who has spent a lot of time practicing the old plane ball, and help put together a clan that was pretty good at it, I'm fairly annoyed now that we're all starting over learning the new plane ball which really doesn't translate well.

No offense, but the old plane ball sucked. It really did. There were threads in the forum every week about "how to improve plane ball" "how to make ball actually have skill" etc. It also led to a MAJOR split in the community between pre-Dec-5 TBDers and post-Dec-5 "bouncy ball heroes" who thought that was the way Altitude was supposed to be played.

The major problems, pointed out again and again by many different players, were:

1. Large gamesize
2. Loopy dominates
3. Passing less important than breakout running
4. Very low skill ceiling

The old plane ball was just 20 loopies afterburning after the ball while pew-pewing into the melee, because the best way to score was to breakout with a loopy running the ball or a miranda warppassing it. The ball moved so slowly across the map (combination of passing and running) that there was never any reason NOT to afterburn to the Ball Melee Zone (except if you were playing goalie I guess).

The new patch fixes most of these problems. It balances toward a smaller gamesize, it balances away from Loopy towards a diversity of planes (planebalance was basically even last time I played), it balanced towards a passing game and it increased the skill ceiling.

Now the best way to score is to have a distributed defense and offense across the map with good passing skills. This is exactly what people wanted from ball.

Various comments about how slow loopy is now

Also guys please stop talking about how much slower Loopy is. Its carrying speed went from 8.9 to 8.4. That's not exactly a gigantic nerf.

I understand Loopy "feels" slow now. What happened is that THE BALL GOT FASTER. This completely obviates Loopy's role as a ball RUNNER as you can pass the ball about twice as fast as a Loopy or any other plane can run it.

It in no way obviates Loopy's role as a ball RECEIVER as he can get downfield faster than any other plane.

The close range maneuvering around the goal has been partially lost due to the combination of speed decreases to the most maneuverable planes and shot power increases for everyone.

Ball will require large, open maps and I'm sure people are designing them right now.

The conclusion for us was that ball is now unplayable in larger games, but 5vs5 to 7vs7 works well.

GOOD.

Hopefully this means the death of the 10v10 bouncy ball servers and people will start playing ball in 6v6 and 7v7 hardwall servers where it works just fine, and where real teamwork and cooperation are involved.

I don't give a rat's ass about game modes other than ball,

I know this sounds elitist or sectarian or whatever, but there are way too many players like this ^.

There are also a surprising # of TBD players who don't want to at least give the new ball a try. My advice is try all the game modes (and don't ragequit after 10 minutes because your skillset from the other mode doesn't translate. Learn to play the new mode!).

poofighter24

01-16-2010, 11:06 PM

I know this sounds elitist or sectarian or whatever, but there are way too many players like this ^.

There are also a surprising # of TBD players who don't want to at least give the new ball a try. My advice is try all the game modes (and don't ragequit after 10 minutes because your skillset from the other mode doesn't translate. Learn to play the new mode!).

You're right, it absolutely does. It doesn't matter though, I love you anyways.

I am tired of people telling me to try new gamemodes like I am an infant. I tried the other game modes, every single one of them. Well, except Free For All, but that's because I automatically assumed it would be terrible.

I played a couple hours of TBD, absolutely hated it. It was sort of like ball, but without passing. The object of the game was seemingly to blow up as many opposing planes and turrets as possible then either lob a bomb at or crash directly into the base. There are probably deeper intricacies to the game, but to me it was too slow and it wasn't worth the hours and hours of tedious boredom it would take for me to get good at the game.

I sucked absolute crap when I first started to play ball, but at the very least I was still having fun. With TBD, I've never had a minute of "action" during which I actually enjoyed playing the game. I was just going through the motions.

With the "new" ball, I'm having pretty much the same amount of fun I have while playing TBD. It's no longer about passing or weaving through traffic, it's blowing up as many planes as possible so I can launch a half-court shot.

As an example, today I was a flexy bomber in a game with some random {ball} dude (dragracer, I think) that grabbed the ball with the miranda in an attempt to score. As a joke at the fact that mirandas are absolutely terrible now, I said "dragracer god damnit, you're a miranda. you're not supposed to pick up the ball"

e-drama obviously ensued (lolvotekicking) but a couple minutes later the other team scored a goal and we respawned. He immediately started to type the sentence "goddamnit you're not supposed to pick up the ball, you're a bomber" but before he could hit enter, I had already grabbed the ball and launched a half-court shot on ball_snow that went straight into the goal. Now, he's not a phenomenally great typist, but that is just pretty ridiculous. That same shot pre-patch wouldn't even have gone past the first snow mound.

NastyManatee

01-16-2010, 11:07 PM

Just a note to everyone who is becoming so hostile (looking at poofighter): There has never been a major game patch that didn't have a subsequent follow-up patch.

Fact: The devs have no way of knowing how things will turn out in practice, and have to jump into most situations and see how they play. Things are often wrong or over-buffed/over-nerfed, and these issues are addressed in the long run.

Fact: It's better to overmodify than undermodify, because it's easier to change things back than patch minor changes 4 times to get things where you wanted them. Live with the fact that for a few days or a week, you might not like how your favorite plane functions, because rarely are truly unbalanced changes left in the game. Worst case scenario, you'll forget all about your imbalanced past planes and move on to current scenarios. Take it from someone who has played the game for awhile, eventually you get right over it and it's like the planes were never different.

New and veteran members have all voiced their opinions, and the devs are evaluating this input and deciding how to design the follow-up patch to best solve everyone's' problems.

Take heart, disheartened, the problems will be addressed, so it's in everyone's best interest to be constructive instead of destructive with their criticism so that devs seriously consider your suggestions. Being polite and thoughtful goes a long way when you want to see the game changed.

ryebone

01-16-2010, 11:16 PM

The fact is, in every single game ever created that involves putting a ball into a goal, there is a "ball carrier" role. In basketball, exceptional ball handlers are scarce and can get to the hoop with ease. In soccer hockey, great passers are useful, but the main way to get from goal A to goal B has always been "carrying" the ball. It's a working formula, and to make ball carriers so useless is going against a strong history of successful sports.

Your analogy to sports is flawed. I'm no soccer buff, but I do know there are specific positions that play certain roles. Defenders defend, midfielders are multipurpose, maintain possession of the ball while feeding the strikers, and strikers score the goals. You will NEVER see a single player dribble the ball for an extended period of time- it's always being passed around, even it's not moving forward. Ball mode should be less like football, where one guy carries the ball and everyone else plows the road, and more like ultimate frisbee, where handlers and cutters play their respective roles to move the ball quickly and effectively.

poofighter24

01-16-2010, 11:20 PM

Just a note to everyone who is becoming so hostile (looking at poofighter)

wat

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

r87

01-16-2010, 11:24 PM

r87

01-16-2010, 11:26 PM

ryebone

01-16-2010, 11:36 PM

"Ball will require large, open maps and I'm sure people are designing them right now."

Seriously? Why? Half the fun of ball is trying to maneuver through all those tight spaces on maze, darkwar, and the like. Wide open spaces (football) are hated by most of the best ball players.

Under the old conditions, yes. Like Palin mentioned,

The old plane ball was just 20 loopies afterburning after the ball while pew-pewing into the melee, because the best way to score was to breakout with a loopy running the ball or a miranda warppassing it. The ball moved so slowly across the map (combination of passing and running) that there was never any reason NOT to afterburn to the Ball Melee Zone (except if you were playing goalie I guess).

It was much more efficient to race through tight spaces to get away from the loopy pewpew. However, those same obstacles which blocked enemy fire are also now blocking potential passing lanes. With the patch focusing on passing the ball, it would be good to have maps that are conducive to it.

r87

01-16-2010, 11:41 PM

There is a reason the GOOD ball players hate football. It's large and wide open. And it sucks.

It seems to me that all these people who I have never seen play a game of ball are really interested in making ball into what they want it to be.

Forgive me for sounding irritated, but you are seriously advocating a move away from maps with a high level of piloting skill just so people can pass more? Good ball players pass a lot as it is. Passing more for the sake of passing more is stupid.

Though Labyrinth is one of my favorite maps.

Larger maps have potential, but "wide open spaces" needs to be qualified a little bit.

Wide open spaces like in ball_woods and ball_lost city are stupid and annoying. Wide open spaces in Labyrinth and snow are fun and challenging.

So now if that is what you mean, I agree with you 100%.

Also, bounce shots are now amazing.

This is one thing I honestly love about the update.

P.S. please don't assume I am annoyed at the devs or anything. This is what I do. I play an update, and spew out all of my opinions as they come along. They will change over time.

nesnl

01-16-2010, 11:55 PM

Well outside of the whole "there should be a ball carrier role" argument, which I don't know how you can argue that because in any game with competent players when someone has the ball for more than a few secodns the chat is spammed with "PASS PASS." I think the problem might lie in the new ball physics. I think going forward, instead of arguing for changes to how you carry the ball in a specific plane, maybe we need to talk about the way the ball travels/bounces? You have to remember that they severely reduced the drag on the ball when it is traveling. Maybe if they increased the drag then you wouldn't see such long range shots, but still well placed passes. On that same note, they made the ball bounce with much more elasticity off objects and my impression of this is that the bounce is too much. So maybe after more testing the conclusion will be to add more drag to the ball and cause it to bounce less off objects.

Duck Duck Pwn

01-17-2010, 12:04 AM

Miranda - Kwame Brown
Because Kwame's suck transcends all sports

As an avid Lakers fan reading this made me laugh my ass off. Kwame was soooo bad hahaha.

Anyway, I guess I'll just try to adjust to the new remo explo and I'll post something once I figure out how it plays. I like the new changes to ball for the most part; i do agree that the maps we have now don't truly accommodate the new style of ball yet, but I'm almost certain that will be solved over time. Overall, I'm looking forward to really playing with this update and seeing how it turns out.

Sarah Palin

01-17-2010, 12:07 AM

Seriously? Why? Half the fun of ball is trying to maneuver through all those tight spaces on maze, darkwar, and the like. Wide open spaces (football) are hated by most of the best ball players.

It's pointless to argue about what kind of map is best for old ball, there is no more old ball.

On the new ball, the maps that were repurposed from TBD are clearly too small as shown by "the best ball players" (lol) complaining about sinking shots from half court.

a move away from maps with a high level of piloting skill

Meaning maps where loopies dominated because loopies flew the fastest and ran the ball the fastest. A team that understands that pass-receiver offense is where it's at is going to crush a team that's stuck in the old running offense paradigm.

The ball arguments are just going round and round at this point, I am more interested to hear what people who mainline mirandas and explos are thinking about the changes to their planes.

r87

01-17-2010, 12:15 AM

On that same note, they made the ball bounce with much more elasticity off objects and my impression of this is that the bounce is too much. So maybe after more testing the conclusion will be to add more drag to the ball and cause it to bounce less off objects.

I actually disagree...I really like that you can make some very cool shots around defenders if you bounce it properly now.

gemigemi

01-17-2010, 12:57 AM

- Make the ball maps bigger. With the ridiculous ball speeds, goals are way too easy.
Ball will require large, open maps and I'm sure people are designing them right now.
The problem isn't the size, the maps are quite good in that manner. The problem is that many of the maps have a long clear path from the middle of the map directly to the goal, leaving the opportunity to shoot goals from that distance. It's not difficult to create a map layout that doesn't have this problem (and such maps exist in the official maps already), so if you want to make long shots impossible then small tweaking to old maps should do the trick.

But hey, this just makes defense necessary, and isn't that also something that people wanted, defense+offense both a necessary part of the game?

Hopefully this means the death of the 10v10 bouncy ball servers and people will start playing ball in 6v6 and 7v7 hardwall servers where it works just fine, and where real teamwork and cooperation are involved.
Yeah, I really hope that 6vs6 - 8vs8 servers will be the ones used later on. I'll be putting up two more {arr} servers tomorrow. One 7vs7 bouncy, one 7vs7 hw. This should allow for more than enough players enjoy the joys of ball without having to use the chaotic 10vs10 servers.

ryebone

01-17-2010, 01:18 AM

Forgive me for sounding irritated, but you are seriously advocating a move away from maps with a high level of piloting skill just so people can pass more? Good ball players pass a lot as it is. Passing more for the sake of passing more is stupid.

On the contrary, I would also consider pilot skill to be moving into position to catch long passes, as well as making the pass accurately.

Larger maps have potential, but "wide open spaces" needs to be qualified a little bit.

Agreed. I didn't necessarily mean I want completely wide open maps like football. Rather, my contention was that some maps had so many obstacles that finding good passing lanes was extremely difficult, further promoting a "I'll just take the ball in myself" mentality. My preference for ball maps would be fairly wide open spaces, with a few well placed obstacles to be used strategically. Darkwar is probably the best ball map right now, because it provides plenty of walls to weave in and out of, while still providing adequate open spaces for making passes (unlike the narrow passageways of mayhem). I actually think lostcity isn't a bad map for ball, besides the always-hated choke in the middle. Even so, the now-increased passing speed makes them less of a problem, since the ball can be passed from one choke point to another relatively quickly.

SuperDad

01-17-2010, 01:26 AM

FINALLY, FIXED WARP PASSING. Thank god.

Harmonica

01-17-2010, 01:40 AM

The problem isn't the size, the maps are quite good in that manner. The problem is that many of the maps have a long clear path from the middle of the map directly to the goal, leaving the opportunity to shoot goals from that distance. It's not difficult to create a map layout that doesn't have this problem (and such maps exist in the official maps already), so if you want to make long shots impossible then small tweaking to old maps should do the trick.

I agree with Gemi: the key factor in Ball maps is not size, but layout and pathways. While those pathways were often used for maneuvering previously, their primary role has always been passing opportunities.

To be honest, I don't think this update has altered either good ball strategy or the quality of [most of] the good ball maps; it's primarily affected the poor strategies that had infected public servers, and the maps which were already widely-derided as being inappropriate for Ball -- namely, the existing wide-open ones.

TRUEPAiN

01-17-2010, 03:05 AM

The major problems, pointed out again and again by many different players, were:

1. Large gamesize
2. Loopy dominates
3. Passing less important than breakout running
4. Very low skill ceiling

This all could have been resolved without messing with the ball physics. Why, why, why would you mess with the ball physics.

You want to encourage people to pass? Make them explode if they hold on to the ball too long! That's how you encourage passing. (game type idea!) or just make a tutorial video on how to pass, and what the objective of ball is that you have to watch before entering a ball server or something.

Not that passing wasn't going on prior to all this.

In public servers, the ball isn't passed mainly because you're dealing with either a newbie, a jerk who loves to irritate people, or a drunk.

a. newbie
b. jerk
c. under the influence

I'm just upset, I suppose. This patch is pretty much telling us how to play, but in reality, it's just simplifying everything for us, making it easier. Which is kinda of a turn off, because balling was much more competitive prior to this I think.. It was probably more team oriented prior to this as well.

Ball just feels silly and ridiculous now, I mean, I'm not even going to explain -I know you all feel it!

and we're all adjusting...

It's these other kids who don't know how to play, why do we have to suffer! (It's not too bad, again.. super strength is kinda fun now)

Making goals was once an art but now it's a joke! (unless half way across a map or ricochet.)

But now you make missiles faster, and planes slower! You want us to die? Nope, you want us to pass, which was something we were all already doing :)

+1 beta testing

please don't bite my head off

<3 T-PaiiiiiN

wiseguy

01-17-2010, 04:14 AM

This all could have been resolved without messing with the ball physics. Why, why, why would you mess with the ball physics.

You want to encourage people to pass? Make them explode if they hold on to the ball too long! That's how you encourage passing.

Actually, decreasing the armor of ball carriers was a suggestion I made that a few people seemed to like--it would encourage passing without slowing the game down.

What we have instead, is a slowed down game. Now that big heavy planes are more competitive, we have a big, heavy game of ball. What I liked about ball in the past was how quick and fast-paced it was compared to TBD.

It was mentioned that it takes forever to move the ball down field, but this is only when the teams are fighting bitterly over it, and I think that's great--a hotly contested game shouldn't end with crazy random scores, with a much faster ball I'm afraid that's what we'll get.

Now, I started to love ball mode because I loved how capable the loopy was at it. I liked being able to zip around the map and be a meaningful player, unlike in TBD or deathmatch where stronger planes clearly carry the weight. The current loopy, while good for getting around and hopefully being in the right place at the right time now, is largely unimportant compared to a flexy bomber or a biplane...there seems little incentive to use a loopy.

What is the loopy, then, if not the fast one? Useless. And to ruin the loopy for ball, the one mode where it really had a place, is a real shame.

For the record, I really wish I could trade this patch back for the old one, self-passing randas and all. Mirandas everywhere, I'm sorry for giving you a hard time, I didn't know how much worse it could get. Please come back :(

tgleaf

01-17-2010, 05:08 AM

Yeah, I really hope that 6vs6 - 8vs8 servers will be the ones used later on. I'll be putting up two more {arr} servers tomorrow. One 7vs7 bouncy, one 7vs7 hw. This should allow for more than enough players enjoy the joys of ball without having to use the chaotic 10vs10 servers.

I'm withholding my comments about the patch until my sanity is restored. But I did want to direct folks to a suggestion I made about congested bouncy ball servers: http://altitudegame.com/forums/showpost.php?p=32798&postcount=26.

And actually, having another 7v7 and/or hard wall server doesn't help, unfortunately. Most people gravitate to full or almost full servers. Because noobs fill up bouncy servers and 10v10 servers quickly, more experienced players see a 10v10 or bouncy server that is 95% full and a bunch of 7v7 or hard wall servers that are 0%-15% full and decide to play where the action is. We can be faulted for this, I suppose, but it's not much fun playing 1v1 or 2v2 ball, so that's what happens.

My solution (see the above thread URL) is actually to get rid of most of the bouncy servers and all of the 10v10 servers. That would encourage players to try out hard walls and would eliminate 10v10 games on public servers.

GGQ

01-17-2010, 05:36 AM

Now, I started to love ball mode because I loved how capable the loopy was at it. I liked being able to zip around the map and be a meaningful player, unlike in TBD or deathmatch where stronger planes clearly carry the weight. The current loopy, while good for getting around and hopefully being in the right place at the right time now, is largely unimportant compared to a flexy bomber or a biplane...there seems little incentive to use a loopy.

What is the loopy, then, if not the fast one? Useless. And to ruin the loopy for ball, the one mode where it really had a place, is a real shame.

I dont want to be rude, but have you considered that you could stand to get a lot better at using loopy?

Loopy is far from useless in either TBD or DM, and I doubt it will prove to be useless in Ball.

I suspect that you simply enjoyed having an overpowered plane in the pre-patch ball environment.

{ICE}vega

01-17-2010, 05:54 AM

I think that there needs to be a plane that carries the ball a bit faster than the rest. In any sport there are positions that need to be faster and some stronger. Making all the planes basically the same speed with the ball doesn't work. I love that planes pass faster now, and some beefing up was good. I just disagree that making all the planes the same speed with the ball was a good move.

nesnl

01-17-2010, 05:54 AM

Also, as another comment about the "What is the loopy, then, if not the fast one? Useless." comment. Loopy is still far and away the fastest plane in the game. I am not sure if it was clear in the patch notes, but the actual speeds of every plane stayed exactly the same. That means in any race for a loose ball or for whatever, the Loopy will still win hands down. So Loopy is still the fast one, that never changed. Also, as GGQ said, Loopy is a valuable plane in TBD matches and is used competitively.

Sarah Palin

01-17-2010, 07:01 AM

Yeah I mainline loopy in TBD and I never feel useless (my teammates might think differently har har).

porpus

01-17-2010, 08:20 AM

(Realism note: warp core jury-rigged to provide blast for ball ejection, takes a moment to reconfigure)

Hilarious.

As for the gameplay, I've had a couple hours and overall am very happy. My only concern is that I believe the remote mine nerfing was a bit too significant. I think that you could return the original detonation time or collidability and leave the rest of the nerfs in place.

classicallad

01-17-2010, 08:26 AM

I seriously believe the ball carry reduction needs to be negated or severely reduced when climbing uphill.

It just took me about 8 seconds to climb up to the top of mayhem from our own goal area. This completely kills any momentum of a counter-attack.

As previously mentioned by Maimer, the updates on ball were made largely to promote a 'passing' game. It makes complete sense to me and the loopy players complaining that they can no longer pick the ball up and run the full length of the map to score should learn to look to 'recieve' the ball. Loopy and mirandas out there you are still the fastest planes so look to recieve from a bomber or explo and your goal tallies will soar.

Also my $00.02 on the latest patch;

Laser was a good buff, it now has a more balanced role and im sure will be used a lot more.

Skins are really cute, i like them. Its nice to be given goals to work towards, it adds to the addictivness of the game and could actually help to develop players to specialise in a certain plane as i cant see many of us managing to have skins for more than say 2 or 3 setups.

I never play TA it doesn't interest me atm, but i played TBD with Mikesol last night and he still owned ^^

Having said that i do play trickster and laser and i feel that removing the 2nd bounce was a good move, Miranda is supposedly a plane with a high skill ceiling and i lost count of the amount of times i was flying through a tunnel with half health and got killed by an unaimed ricochet!

Love the %10 speed boost on rockets for Explodet it feels more natural now, i actually think thermo is the strongest of the three now and my newly preferred setup. I think the remote nerf went too far personally, remote players are too vunerable against well all other planes really now. Maybe a slight tweak in the next patch can sort it out, im aware that a bug arised to do with not being able to detonate rockets at close range and look forward to the fix.

Imo @ explodet, either allow remote mines to detonate upon collision with enemy planes as well as remotely. And/or reduce the length in which mines are laid behind the explodet.

Great work Karl & Lamster,

I love your game =]

Stormich

01-17-2010, 08:44 AM

gemigemi

01-17-2010, 10:20 AM

And actually, having another 7v7 and/or hard wall server doesn't help, unfortunately. Most people gravitate to full or almost full servers. Because noobs fill up bouncy servers and 10v10 servers quickly, more experienced players see a 10v10 or bouncy server that is 95% full and a bunch of 7v7 or hard wall servers that are 0%-15% full and decide to play where the action is. We can be faulted for this, I suppose, but it's not much fun playing 1v1 or 2v2 ball, so that's what happens.

My solution (see the above thread URL) is actually to get rid of most of the bouncy servers and all of the 10v10 servers. That would encourage players to try out hard walls and would eliminate 10v10 games on public servers.
Yeah, people tend to stack on the same servers. But to my surprise, I opened the first {arr} server a couple of days ago mainly for personal testing purposes, and the next day when I logged in it was full of people. This has been the trend each day after that. And if the server is empty, I just need to join in to show that there's at least one player and immediately more start turning in until we have a full game in less than 15 minutes. I really have no clue why this server became so popular, but I assume players have realized how much better the game is with lower player count and the server specs, ping, etc just happened to match what they wanted.

So yeah, while I agree that it's not always that easy to just get players where we might want them, it might still be a lot easier than it seems. Changing the 10v10 servers to 7v7 or 8v8 as suggested above is still a good idea to make sure that players will always be playing with more optimal player numbers.

TRUEPAiN

01-17-2010, 10:39 AM

How can you say it was more team oriented before? It was about using loopy 90% of the time and self passing low on a bouncy server. People would slam into the ground grabbing the ball and self pass again. There is no skill there. Now that you have passing as the main strategy the game focuses on teamwork. Now you can actually use a biplane and make a difference. Every person that likes the ball change is from a good ball team. Also {ball} who is probably the most prominent ball team out there haven't made a complaint yet. I do agree that shooting a goal from mid should be taken care of in map layout but the rest of complaints is just lol. "Why did you make all planes good when only miranda/loopy was good before?"

I don't know man, loopys kinda need the speed because of its low health. It can easily be shot down from the sky or nuked into the wall. Especially now that rockets are faster, and it's not like we get that far alone anyway. It's just our ability to when we have the opportunity, and who's fault is it to give us that type of opportunity :D

I feel like loopys have to rely heavily on their timing, approach, and just everything they can muster and more. Because we really only have one opportunity or we're dead. We already die a lot. You lower our speed, you decrease our home running hitting capability, you make me go biplane.

It's like a cat vs mouse.

Ball has always been team oriented. Even if the loopy brought the ball halfway across the map, it isn't likely (especially against good ballers) that he get far. I assure you. :cool:

Passing has always been a large part of the game. Every ball clan, ball player knows that if you want to be successful, and want a quick score you pass the ball.

Players swooping and running away with the ball is a result of a failed offensive attack, or dire situations in which your team needs you to buy time so your team can regroup.

I think it's rather lame, our only chance to get the ball across the map is to have a open receiver, or just launch the ball across the floor, or through the air away from the opposing team.. or just accepting death because we're incapable of doing anything else.

That's all the game is now, it's lost a dimension, and it's a shame.

It's like a football team without a running back, or a team without a 10 ten draft pick making 60 million dollars.

Everyone is average now, and you know what's coming!

I'm curious as to what real matches are like now, any ball clans have any match-ups recently?

More intense? Less intense?

please don't attack

http://www.weallscheme.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/michael-jordan.jpg
^loopy^

<3 T-PaiiN!

Stormich

01-17-2010, 12:45 PM

I understand what you're saying but the role changed now, without the ball loopy is still the fastest and your role is to catch lose balls/act as a wider receiver for bomber or explodet who have to launch the ball your way. It's just a shift in the metagame, you aren't that much weaker, just try to find your purpose. If all the changes really don't work the admins are probably going to make some rollbacks. Try it out for a couple of weeks and see how it goes.

tyr

01-17-2010, 01:13 PM

Seriously wtf
I played loopy in ball before the patch and I still play loopy now, and I'm still able to score goals fairly easily, even starting my run from the middle of the map, self-passing my way to the enemy goal. Like before. In a full server.
Please lose less time complaining and go actually play so you can improve.

Loopy is FAR from useless.

Vania

01-17-2010, 02:41 PM

I'm liking the patch so far.

But I dont think a patch is ever going to make me like ball.

nesnl

01-17-2010, 06:13 PM

Mark

01-17-2010, 08:01 PM

do skins increase any stats. reply to me with a private message

GGQ

01-17-2010, 08:05 PM

do skins increase any stats. reply to me with a private message

No, they don't.

NastyManatee

01-18-2010, 02:56 AM

I have to say that after playing around a bit today, I like ball more now than ever. Self-pass or no self-pass, wall bouncing has now become a truly big deal, and passing is better than before by a long shot. I spent almost an hour with a friend figuring out pass trajectories and speeds and the different bounce shots we were able to accomplish with our planes.

Ultimately, I feel like these emphasized dynamics encourage teamwork and strategy that is fundamentally different from tbd, and for that, I think the patch is a success.

tgleaf

01-18-2010, 07:04 AM

I have waited to comment for what seems an eternity in the world of Altitude, but I have now played a fair amount of games on a variety of maps, with anywhere from 2v2 to 10v10 players, and with BALL pros, TBD pros, and noobs of all stripes.

I do not like the patch, BUT I am not going to complain and whine. I will get used to the changes and roll with the punches. Here, I will try to offer my perspective without too much bias.

Pros
Plane balance: removing self-pass for mirandas, equalizing plane speed while carrying the ball, and unbalancing plane passing/shooting speed all led to a game where each plane feels more a part of the whole. It is no longer a game of "let's watch the loopies fly past with the ball" with a few supporting cast members (non-loopies). The carrying speeds also bring new dynamics to team strategy, whereby choosing which type of plane to carry the ball in certain situations (e.g. goal-tending, mid-map, through choke points, heading to goal) is no longer a no-brainer and requires careful consideration.
Improved passing opportunities: the passing speed allows for some dynamic passes and clears (passes from goal) that couldn't be done before.
Improved shooting distance/trick shots: the shooting speed and bounciness of the ball allow for some pretty incredible long shots and shots off of obstacles. This adds fun and unpredictability to the game.

Cons
Eratic ball movement: The bounciness of the ball off of objects seems to be too great. The ball often bounces around like a pinball and causes planes to alter their flight path greatly to retrieve it.
Hindered passing: The increased passing speed was intended to give planes a reason to pass more. It seems to have done the opposite, at least initially. Larger games with inexperienced players have always lacked passing. That won't change. But the smaller competitive games seem to be facing a passing dilemma related to pass speed and ball bounciness. Passing is in some ways less risky (grabbing the ball near your goal and dishing it out is quick and there is less chance for an interception), but in other ways more risky (short passes mid-map can accidentally hit an object and bounce all the way back to your goal).
Less defensible shots: The increased shot speed allows players to make long shots on certain maps that either couldn't be made before, or that are now much faster and easier to make. This means that the skill ceiling for scoring goals is lower for some maps. It also prevents a percentage of the amazing goal saves that used to happen when an opposing plane would swoop down to catch a (more slower moving) shot.
Match size is affected: The prevalence of bombers and explodets has had an interesting effect on the feel of maps. This is hard to explain, but many people on both public and private servers have commented on how maps that used to feel right with 7v7 now require 6v6 or even 5v5 to work. And I know that it's easy to bash 10v10 games (I've done it myself), but there were maps that I believe worked okay for 10v10 that are now just hideous. Take as an example a 30-minute marathon on labyrinth played with mostly inexperienced players. I don't think it was much fun for anyone. Then again, people stayed so maybe it was fun! The new distribution of plane types and bounciness of the ball seem to indicate that all maps need a reduction in number of players.

All in all, I again want to stress that I am trying to see this from all players' perspective. I have read the comments throughout this thread and know that many people appreciate and enjoy the faster passing/shooting speed, and are learning fun ways to make use of the bounciness of the ball. I avoided writing a manifesto called "tgleaf's 10 reasons why Loopy dominance should be returned to planeball" (lol) and instead took in-game experience and comments to heart.

In summary, several of the maps may need changes to accommodate the new style of play. The only change I would like the developers to consider is to reduce (not revert) the bounciness of the ball. Sure, if I had my way, I'd ask for slower ball movement (passing/shooting) for all planes, but I think I can live with that one. Less pinball, please!

RyGuy

01-18-2010, 07:25 AM

I haven't tested ball speeds and passing yet, so I'm only addressing plane stats and ability aside from carrying a ball at this point. I have a lot of experience and play time with this game as many of you know, so I hope my comment will carry some weight.

First off, I say good job on patch overall and I appreciate the amount of support being put into this game. Nothing like a game that is constantly being honed and improved vs. not being supported. I think overall it's a great step in the right direction and I like what's been done with the planes.

There's been so many previous posts to mine, but here goes. I really only have issue with the Whale (aka walrus/cow/buffalo etc.). As I said, I think other planes are fine. I think the implementing the cooldown increase is good, as it prohibits spam. Rocket speed? Hardly noticeable, but ok. However, I do not view the remote detonation minimum release as balanced. Yes, part of remote mines is to be strategic you may say, but part of the idea of having a remote mine is for you to be in full control of when it detonates. That's what sets it apart from the other mines, which are just pooped out and left as orphans. It's frustrating to lay a normal mine, and have opponents easily navigate right around them. That's why remotes were good because I could force them to explode on my enemies regardless of whether they made contact with it or not.

I also think that collision should be implemented back into remotes as well. As was previously mentioned, in the situation of a closely trailing enemy, the explodet is rendered useless.

/2 cents.

As I said though: overall, great work. ;)

gemigemi

01-18-2010, 07:43 AM

In summary, several of the maps may need changes to accommodate the new style of play. The only change I would like the developers to consider is to reduce (not revert) the bounciness of the ball. Sure, if I had my way, I'd ask for slower ball movement (passing/shooting) for all planes, but I think I can live with that one. Less pinball, please!
This summarizes my feelings quite well. Map changes are imo needed to make some maps more fun with the new rules, and the ball does indeed do some weird bouncing with the new improved bounce. When on slow speeds the ball might even gain more speed from a bounce, which is wrong on so many levels. Even though it's a game and not a physics lab, players need to be able to predict the ball movements and that's sometimes quite hard with the new bounce.

Esoteric

01-18-2010, 08:05 AM

I haven't weighed in yet, and have only played a few games of ball but I'm really liking this patch for...well, every game mode. I'm not a baller, so can't speak to the ball-specific changes but am very happy with the way explos handle now. 2 people directly behind you is a bad thing instead of a good one which is exactly how it always should have been. Protip: If you used to double-tap s, try holding it instead for now--before I figured that out mines felt too slow.

Great other changes as well, anchor and laser seem closer in power level and skins are good fun--though camo can be quite effective on some maps.

Sarah Palin

01-18-2010, 08:10 AM

I have tried every plane in ball now (although I am and forever will be teh suck at randa) and, well, it feels fairly balanced, not as perfect as TBD but a wonderful improvement. Whale is my new favorite.

What is lacking now, is the map set is close to dysfunctional which is our problem not the devs' :D. The ball elasticity is good, the problem is the maps are small and cluttered. Most maps (Woods, Cave, Mayhem2, Core, Lost City) are in the range of 3300-3900 pixels long. Only a few maps (Snow, Grotto) are longer.

I am making a map that will be 5000 long.

r87

01-18-2010, 08:14 AM

Harmonica

01-18-2010, 08:23 AM

For pass speed and ball bounciness, there seem to be two recurring themes: the new values work great for enabling intentional plays (lined-up passes, bounce shots, etc) but the current levels also have some negative side effects (like cheap half-court shots and extended periods of random bouncing).

The positive effects all occur immediately after the ball is thrown, and the negative effects all occur significantly later -- so, would it be possible to make the ball's drag and elasticity time-dependent?

For example, immediately after a shot/pass the ball would be quite bouncy and would not lose momentum to drag, but the longer it remained loose the less mobile/erratic it would behave. Direct passes would still be as fluid as they are today, but a gradual addition of drag would make cross-map shots infeasible. A missed pass or thermo'd shot would give a moment of "bouncy ball" chaos, but a gradual reduction in elasticity would allow the ball to settle down more quickly than it does today.

drunkguava

01-18-2010, 08:28 AM

I played a bunch of games of ball last night with a good group of players. It was probably 4 ball players as well as some r87 and some others. Most people there have been playing ball for a long time. The games were good and I still saw a Loopys and Mirandas doing most if not all of the scoring in the games. Sure, the plane mix was more diverse, but Loopys and Mirandas were far from useless. Also, I didn't hear anyone complaining.

Also, it was good to see a game going on a 7v7 hard wall server. It made the games much more enjoyable.

wait... you played a game with r87s and nobody complained? that doesnt sound right...
(jokes)

I love the new patch for ball. i love that explodets and bombers can have roles outside of killing people and playing defense now. i had been playing a lot more thermo before the patch, now i think i might be playing it as much as I play loopy. the shot speed and decreased carrying penalty make it much more viable for a midfield/distributor role than it was previously. There were several passes that people made that wouldnt have even been conceivable before (i wish i got a screenie on one where i shot a pass from the bottom of core, to a loopy streaking to the goal, surrounded by enemy planes).
-bounce passes and bounce shots are also much more realistic now. bouncing the ball was always more useful than people realized, but now it is incredible and adds a major element to the game.
-i also like the loopy nerf. it reduces the number of loopys in game, and imo actually increases its effectiveness. with fewer loopys around, there is less rocket spam, which is hard to avoid, and instead more rockets and bombs, which take much more skill to aim (and can be dodged with some skill as well).
i still get my goals with loopy, but i find myself relying on my teammates a lot more. this is a good thing
in summary: imo, the game is much less of a crapshoot now. there is much less, "ZOMG I somehow survived the rocket spam and flew my loopy into the goal!!!!!!!" and much more strategery. It will take some getting used to, for sure, but all inall, this was in excellent update.
thanks for listening, devs, we really appreciate it.

---also, i am loving that randa self-pass was one of the LEAST significant of the changes. that just shows how much this patch accomplished.

{ball*} drunkguava

CCN

01-18-2010, 08:35 AM

Who was this miranda who was not useless? Maybe I can learn from him because I feel like dead weight to my team in a miranda. The only thing that makes me any use is my TBD killing skills (while switching to another plane I could have the kills and more ball control help).

Sarah Palin

01-18-2010, 08:51 AM

SuperDad

01-18-2010, 11:20 AM

Just throwing this idea out there but... what if the ball standard had a different viewscale?

Advantages:

1. Can make larger maps without totally losing perspective.
2. Players can see each other which encourages passing formations and teamwork.

This.

Anyway, what I would like to see is more people playing hard walls, and anything other than 10v10. It's just not the same.

Loli.ta

01-18-2010, 09:49 PM

EDIT: With all the people complaining about the remote nerf please bring back mine hopping, it was so much fun!

Love Stormy's Comment. I can't even push off enemies with Remote Mine, it magically goes through them. *sob*

Flyngbanana

01-18-2010, 11:17 PM

Please bring back mine hopping. You can't even kill a loopy from behind sometimes now, let alone escape.

nobodyhome

01-18-2010, 11:36 PM

Please bring back mine hopping. You can't even kill a loopy from behind sometimes now, let alone escape.

haha. now you know what it's like being a biplane.

Loli.ta

01-19-2010, 12:01 AM

It is now viable to stay behind a 'plodet (with Remote Mine). You can't even bounce off enemies.

protest boy

01-19-2010, 12:02 AM

Snowsickle

01-19-2010, 12:22 AM

For everyone who is sad that they can't immediately kill something on their tail with the new remote mine changes, I'd like to point out that 2/3 explodet modes (director and thermo) are perfect for releasing an exploding mine right into your opponents face.

This does take come effort (as it should) by the explodet pilot to place the mine in the right place.

Remote mine made people lazy because you could simply drop a mine and detonate it immediately. With its huge area of effect, the threat is eliminated nearly 100% of the time. That's too easy.

I completely agree with this. I think far too many complaints can be summed up by "Hey guys, I don't seem to be capable of the exact same things I was capable with before the nerf, what gives?" The plane was nerfed in a couple ways; you're going to get far better results from trying to adapt to those changes rather than trying to rely on the same playstyle you developed while the plane was in an overpowered state. I have seen a good number of skilled remote mine players doing exceptionally well after the patch, so it certainly is possible to adapt. It's very easy to offer a knee-jerk reaction on the forums, but putting in some real time and effort to adapt (note: NOT "I played the patch for like 3 hours man and explodet totally sux now!") will go a long way toward making your complaints seem reasonable.

tgleaf

01-19-2010, 12:35 AM

Love Harmonica's idea about decrementing ball bounce and speed over time (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showpost.php?p=33443&postcount=185).

Just throwing this idea out there but... what if the ball standard had a different viewscale?

SP - no idea until we try it, but it sounds good... test server?

matattack

01-19-2010, 12:38 AM

Maybe the first change that was made, where mines won't detonate on contact, should be changed back so that they will detonate on contact. This way if a plane is tailgating it will detonate as soon as the mine hits it, but if a plane isn't there there is still that safe guard against mine jumping and the rapid fire spam from mines.

i still stand by this quote regarding remote mines :o

although recently i have noticed that its helpful to let escorts pass your mine and detonate infront of the bomber :)
hard to say really...

Sarah Palin

01-19-2010, 12:58 AM

Love Harmonica's idea about decrementing ball bounce and speed over time (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showpost.php?p=33443&postcount=185).

SP - no idea until we try it, but it sounds good... test server?

The problem with all these ideas though, is we have to have a standard.

*viewscale and planesize
*team size
*ball speed

THEN we can start designing maps around that standard. But we can't have one map that's ideal for 10v10 but requires a zoomed out scale, and then the next map is best for 5v5 at normal view.

I'm not a huge fan of 10v10 but the fact that most servers are 10v10 even a week after the patch suggests that this has become a permanent standard game size.

Now at this game size I think most people agree existing maps are too small. The scale of a new whale or bomber pass simply doesn't match up to the scale of the map. But on a map that's any larger than Grotto or Snow, you can't really see enough of what's going on.

At the same time I like the smaller ball games.

Thus I suggest two standards.

1. "Competitive" ball. 5v5 to 7v7. These servers will have existing maps at 100% scale.

2. "Team" ball. 10v10. These servers will have the newly designed larger maps at around 90% or 80% scale.

This would require, though, people designing a lot of new large maps, testing them, and then somehow convincing the official 10v10 servers to change their planescale. so it's going to take some work from the community.

AtomikPi

01-19-2010, 01:29 AM

I completely agree with this. I think far too many complaints can be summed up by "Hey guys, I don't seem to be capable of the exact same things I was capable with before the nerf, what gives?" The plane was nerfed in a couple ways; you're going to get far better results from trying to adapt to those changes rather than trying to rely on the same playstyle you developed while the plane was in an overpowered state. I have seen a good number of skilled remote mine players doing exceptionally well after the patch, so it certainly is possible to adapt. It's very easy to offer a knee-jerk reaction on the forums, but putting in some real time and effort to adapt (note: NOT "I played the patch for like 3 hours man and explodet totally sux now!") will go a long way toward making your complaints seem reasonable.

The problem is that instead of doing a moderate nerf, the developers decided to do FOUR at once. Disregarding the splash damage decrease, which no one noticed, they first took away out detonation - fine since it encouraged spam. They also increased cooldown - while not ideal, it's probably in the best interest of balance and it's something whales can adapt to. The problem is with the detonation time nerf remote is that now remote is basically pointless in what used to be its main strength. There are still people playing it because it takes time to learn other planes and adapt, but there is such a thing as too severe a nerf, and this is it. I expect usage of remote mine to fall steadily if the issue is not remedied, and thermo will probably become the dominant setup.

nesnl

01-19-2010, 02:59 AM

The problem is that instead of doing a moderate nerf, the developers decided to do FOUR at once. Disregarding the splash damage decrease, which no one noticed, they first took away out detonation - fine since it encouraged spam. They also increased cooldown - while not ideal, it's probably in the best interest of balance and it's something whales can adapt to. The problem is with the detonation time nerf remote is that now remote is basically pointless in what used to be its main strength. There are still people playing it because it takes time to learn other planes and adapt, but there is such a thing as too severe a nerf, and this is it. I expect usage of remote mine to fall steadily if the issue is not remedied, and thermo will probably become the dominant setup.

What would suggest as changes that you would make? I think the important part at looking at the changes was that the whole mine-jumping, D mashing playstyle of remote mine was kind of ridiculous. Like Snow said, the Director perk allows you to spam mines in someone's face for immediate detonation, but at least that took aiming and skill. So I ask you, how can the remote mine be changed so that it is a different but viable option as compared to the other style mines?

CDRdude

01-19-2010, 03:07 AM

Apheirox

01-19-2010, 03:41 AM

I just learned of this patch being released and am especially happy to hear about the changes to ball mode. I will check this thing out right away.

Fantastic, just fantastic support for this game.

as red as black

01-19-2010, 06:43 AM

I'm late to the party here, and I've had very little playtime with the latest patch, but I want to weigh in anyway.

It seems to me that maps are an overlooked aspect of game balance. With the new community points thing, you could offer community points to people who make good maps. Make a couple of community map servers (for lots of players, only a few players, bouncy/hard walls, etc) and a way users to upload their own maps. There'll probably be some gems in the dross, and the users that made the ones with the most playtime are rewarded with community points.

+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1

there needs to be some sort of official experimental maps thread. the blue hawk one was great, but it disappeared. give community points for maps that get played a lot, say something like 100 community points for every time your map gets played 30 times.

then the good ones can be made official official.

Vi*

01-19-2010, 09:09 AM

So I've been thinking about the remote nerfs.

Remote used to be really good for get-away-from-my-ass. Now director is better for that, and I think that's the way it should stay. Remote needs a bit of a buff now (though it's still viable), but not back in the direction it came from. Now that the mines aren't collidable, you can't just leave it somewhere out of view and wait for an enemy to run into it. So I'd like to see them last longer, perhaps the entire life of the 'det (and explode when you do). That way you can effectively use the mine to encourage enemies to use other paths, without it prematurely exploding. And/or make the blast radius bigger, maybe increase the cooldown more to balance out. I feel like remote mine 'det should be good at staking a claim on a piece of territory and taking advantage of home terrain, since it doesn't have much maneuverability or ways to keep enemies off its ass. Anything but changing it back to how it was, really.

Thermobarics is a whole other kettle of fish. Now that we know and love fast rockets, why not change thermo to Heavy Rockets, which would be like director except slower, and do more damage and/or knockback. Or sniper rockets, which would be the opposite. Or heavy rockets which are still fast but affected by gravity, so they'd be super hard to aim-- but hey, we love high skill ceilings. That'd be capital-A Awesome.

Speaking of get-away-from-my-ass, I'd like to see bomber have tailgun buffed and 'nades nerfed. This should be the plane you really don't want to be behind, and everyone hates 'nades. I support changing dumb bombs to bombs+tailgun like in old alt. Plain ol' damage increase to normal tailgun, less cooldown on flak, and then make 'nades (and bombs) take more energy so you can't fire so god-damned many.

classicallad

01-19-2010, 05:28 PM

are you kidding? Tail gun is awesomly powerful as it is.

hurripilot

01-19-2010, 05:35 PM

+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1

there needs to be some sort of official experimental maps thread. the blue hawk one was great, but it disappeared. give community points for maps that get played a lot, say something like 100 community points for every time your map gets played 30 times.

then the good ones can be made official official.

I really miss the community maps servers :( Man that thing was fun. Besides New England, they were the only servers I would hang out in without auto-joining something else.

CCN

01-19-2010, 05:46 PM

I really miss the community maps servers :( Man that thing was fun. Besides New England, they were the only servers I would hang out in without auto-joining something else.

communitymaps and the other one people used to hand out in with the first awesome bouncy map was great.. and sorely missed =(

DiogenesDog

01-19-2010, 06:32 PM

Totally agree with Vi on remote mine. A+++

Semi-agree on Thermo. Never really been jazzed about this perk. I don't hate it or anything the way some people do, but meh. Never felt quite perfect.

Totally disagree on Bombers. Actually, my biggest gripe about Alt is that most of the planes can attack both forward and to the rear. Bombs+Tailgun was cool because it reversed the normal vulnerable point, but I've always been annoyed at the way the Bomber is basically a beast from any angle now. I'd def rather have a weak tailgun rather than some kind of weird thing where the primary and secondary are equally powerful, so the only vulnerable angle is approaching direction from top/bottom.

altitudegame

Thứ Sáu, 7 tháng 4, 2017

Patch: Jan 15th, skins, new maps, balance, ball improvements, bug fixes page 1

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