NastyManatee
12-08-2009, 08:59 PM
I'm surprised to not see more threads about it, but between blinding lag and the new fixation on bouncy (read skill devoid) servers, this game is degenerating into chaos.
I mean, the only official server without bouncy walls is no max ping, where are competitive players supposed to play?
I understand that the game launched on steam, but I fail to see how bouncy servers make the game more enjoyable to anyone. When I started playing this game, I got hooked because of the skill curve, not how easy it was to fly a plane and not crash. Some reviews are purporting the game as skill-less and chaotic, and I have a hard time imagining that many new players don't view the game from the same perspective when there is almost no risk involved in playing in most servers. There are no such thing as skilled maneuvers in bouncy servers, you just hit whatever walls you want and fly away, and without a need for skill, the game is just spam.
Besides, remember all those long months that went into game balancing? Well, it is kind of all for naught when you just robbed explodets of their primary damage source and enabled entirely new attack strategies (read lying on the ground and firing at anything that flies by) that alter the survivability and lethality of all planes.
Furthermore, while this is a slight digression, I think it's agreeable that 200+ ping makes a plane impossible to defend against. I fail to see why 400 ping limit servers exist at all if their intent is to keep players who degrade play quality in specific servers. With 400 max ping, a server can still be filled with game-crippling lag. 200 max ping and no max ping, there need not be other divisions for servers (unless a few 150 or 100 max ping servers get sprinkled in, feel free to do that).
Ultimately, my suggestion is thus: Make level cap servers from 1 to 50 with bouncy walls for new players, and keep all other official servers hard walled, half max ping 200 and half no max ping. If level 60s want to play bouncy, they have the fun servers, and you could even keep one server bouncy (just one, for the love of god, just one) for all levels in case people just want to screw around. If this is too much to ask, please at least make official 2 (ping limit 200 if I'm not mistaken) not bouncy so there is some respite from total chaos.
The honest truth is that most good players feel betrayed by these changes, and you are scaring good players away from your game by promoting spam and slop and forcing people who try to escape this into extreme lag. Before the changes, I could play altitude for hours, now 15 or 30 minutes is about all I can handle before frustration inspires me to play something else.
If you're okay with turning the game entirely casual and building it around new players, that's fine. You're just not gonna have a lot of "competitive play" to advertise your game with if you keep shafting the competitive players...
If you agree, make your own post. Problems don't get fixed unless they are widely identified as problems.
I mean, the only official server without bouncy walls is no max ping, where are competitive players supposed to play?
I understand that the game launched on steam, but I fail to see how bouncy servers make the game more enjoyable to anyone. When I started playing this game, I got hooked because of the skill curve, not how easy it was to fly a plane and not crash. Some reviews are purporting the game as skill-less and chaotic, and I have a hard time imagining that many new players don't view the game from the same perspective when there is almost no risk involved in playing in most servers. There are no such thing as skilled maneuvers in bouncy servers, you just hit whatever walls you want and fly away, and without a need for skill, the game is just spam.
Besides, remember all those long months that went into game balancing? Well, it is kind of all for naught when you just robbed explodets of their primary damage source and enabled entirely new attack strategies (read lying on the ground and firing at anything that flies by) that alter the survivability and lethality of all planes.
Furthermore, while this is a slight digression, I think it's agreeable that 200+ ping makes a plane impossible to defend against. I fail to see why 400 ping limit servers exist at all if their intent is to keep players who degrade play quality in specific servers. With 400 max ping, a server can still be filled with game-crippling lag. 200 max ping and no max ping, there need not be other divisions for servers (unless a few 150 or 100 max ping servers get sprinkled in, feel free to do that).
Ultimately, my suggestion is thus: Make level cap servers from 1 to 50 with bouncy walls for new players, and keep all other official servers hard walled, half max ping 200 and half no max ping. If level 60s want to play bouncy, they have the fun servers, and you could even keep one server bouncy (just one, for the love of god, just one) for all levels in case people just want to screw around. If this is too much to ask, please at least make official 2 (ping limit 200 if I'm not mistaken) not bouncy so there is some respite from total chaos.
The honest truth is that most good players feel betrayed by these changes, and you are scaring good players away from your game by promoting spam and slop and forcing people who try to escape this into extreme lag. Before the changes, I could play altitude for hours, now 15 or 30 minutes is about all I can handle before frustration inspires me to play something else.
If you're okay with turning the game entirely casual and building it around new players, that's fine. You're just not gonna have a lot of "competitive play" to advertise your game with if you keep shafting the competitive players...
If you agree, make your own post. Problems don't get fixed unless they are widely identified as problems.
Vi*
12-08-2009, 09:07 PM
I mean, the only official server without bouncy walls is no max ping, where are competitive players supposed to play?
Dude. Seriously, the competitive players are in New England Deathmatch, or Captain's Games. There are plenty of servers with hard walls and 200 ping limit (all the New England servers, for example, don't I say this enough?).
Bouncy walls are better for noobs. They'll get competitive eventually. In the meantime, it's not difficult to get a more competitive game going in, for example, New England TBD. I see that you're too lazy to try and get an empty server started, but really, if you have a couple of friends on that you can call in it's not that hard.
Dude. Seriously, the competitive players are in New England Deathmatch, or Captain's Games. There are plenty of servers with hard walls and 200 ping limit (all the New England servers, for example, don't I say this enough?).
Bouncy walls are better for noobs. They'll get competitive eventually. In the meantime, it's not difficult to get a more competitive game going in, for example, New England TBD. I see that you're too lazy to try and get an empty server started, but really, if you have a couple of friends on that you can call in it's not that hard.
GGQ
12-08-2009, 09:16 PM
When I started playing this game, I got hooked because of the skill curve, not how easy it was to fly a plane and not crash.
Ultimately, my suggestion is thus: Make level cap servers from 1 to 50 with bouncy walls for new players, and keep all other official servers hard walled
I do agree with this, and I think the abundance of bouncy servers now available is way overboard.
But at the same time, I agree with Vi that I haven't had any trouble starting a good game on a hardwall server when I want one, so the problem (that I definitely agree exists) may not be as crippling as you suggest.
Ultimately, my suggestion is thus: Make level cap servers from 1 to 50 with bouncy walls for new players, and keep all other official servers hard walled
I do agree with this, and I think the abundance of bouncy servers now available is way overboard.
But at the same time, I agree with Vi that I haven't had any trouble starting a good game on a hardwall server when I want one, so the problem (that I definitely agree exists) may not be as crippling as you suggest.
Kuja900
12-08-2009, 09:23 PM
Dude. Seriously, the competitive players are in New England Deathmatch, or Captain's Games. There are plenty of servers with hard walls and 200 ping limit (all the New England servers, for example, don't I say this enough?).
Bouncy walls are better for noobs. They'll get competitive eventually. In the meantime, it's not difficult to get a more competitive game going in, for example, New England TBD. I see that you're too lazy to try and get an empty server started, but really, if you have a couple of friends on that you can call in it's not that hard.
It is more difficult to get a non-bouncy wall game than you think. Check out this pic I took last night, not one server with people in it that wasnt bouncy. We shouldn't have to organize ourselves to play even one game without bouncy walls.
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3023/altitude200912080040560.png
Bouncy walls are better for noobs. They'll get competitive eventually. In the meantime, it's not difficult to get a more competitive game going in, for example, New England TBD. I see that you're too lazy to try and get an empty server started, but really, if you have a couple of friends on that you can call in it's not that hard.
It is more difficult to get a non-bouncy wall game than you think. Check out this pic I took last night, not one server with people in it that wasnt bouncy. We shouldn't have to organize ourselves to play even one game without bouncy walls.
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3023/altitude200912080040560.png
Karl
12-08-2009, 09:28 PM
As of this moment there are 30 hardwall servers and 70 bouncy. Seeing as the majority of servers are run by the community I'm going to have to say that's what's popular.
Altitude is still the Altitude it's always been, we simply added a fun mode (vs competitive). Altitude had the competitive gaming mode, it desperately needed the "I just want to have fun" mode.
By giving new users a place to master the controls you will soon have a massive influx of players into the competitive servers and eventually the Altitude pro league.
Thanks for the input as we take it very seriously.
Altitude is still the Altitude it's always been, we simply added a fun mode (vs competitive). Altitude had the competitive gaming mode, it desperately needed the "I just want to have fun" mode.
By giving new users a place to master the controls you will soon have a massive influx of players into the competitive servers and eventually the Altitude pro league.
Thanks for the input as we take it very seriously.
nesnl
12-08-2009, 09:30 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think if any of the Official Servers (ie #1-#3) are bouncy it is by mistake. I believe that Lamster said it was some update error that caused those servers to revert to bouncy mode. So if those servers are still bouncy it definitely needs to be put to hard walled as there is absolutely no reason to have those servers in bouncy mode.
Also, I posted about this before, but I feel it has taken on a whole new importance: there needs to be some indication of whether a server is on bouncy or hard walled mode. I hate joining a server and then realizing it's bouncy mode when I didn't think it was going to be. Maybe make a new column in the server list that just says either "HARD" or "SOFT" next to the server or something.
Also, I posted about this before, but I feel it has taken on a whole new importance: there needs to be some indication of whether a server is on bouncy or hard walled mode. I hate joining a server and then realizing it's bouncy mode when I didn't think it was going to be. Maybe make a new column in the server list that just says either "HARD" or "SOFT" next to the server or something.
NastyManatee
12-08-2009, 09:31 PM
Thank you Kuja for being a realist.
And Vi, I realize the need to advertise your servers, and that when people are on New England the matches are typically quite good, but the fact of the matter is that people play the official servers first and foremost, and the game should have "official" support of competitive and casual play, not just casual play. I mean, sitting by myself in Captain's or a New England server isn't exactly what I have in mind when I decide to play altitude, and this is often the situation I'd be left in these days if I followed your solution.
And I realize that I could make my own server, but the facts of life are that people concentrate around the official servers, and it is important that they are well structured to support diverse and satisfying gameplay. I was originally all for measures to ease in new steam players, but the word overboard comes to mind when viewing the current situation.
And Vi, I realize the need to advertise your servers, and that when people are on New England the matches are typically quite good, but the fact of the matter is that people play the official servers first and foremost, and the game should have "official" support of competitive and casual play, not just casual play. I mean, sitting by myself in Captain's or a New England server isn't exactly what I have in mind when I decide to play altitude, and this is often the situation I'd be left in these days if I followed your solution.
And I realize that I could make my own server, but the facts of life are that people concentrate around the official servers, and it is important that they are well structured to support diverse and satisfying gameplay. I was originally all for measures to ease in new steam players, but the word overboard comes to mind when viewing the current situation.
GGQ
12-08-2009, 09:33 PM
Can we call bouncy servers 'casual' instead of 'fun'? Because, as I said earlier, the challenge of the hard walls was what made it fun for me when I was a noob.
nobodyhome
12-08-2009, 09:38 PM
quick question: is the default setting of servers still set to bouncy walls? if it is not, it should be. "hard" walls should really be called "normal" walls as that is the setting most appropriate to skilled play. likewise, bouncy walls should be called "easy" mode =\
eth
12-08-2009, 09:40 PM
Great, so hardwalls is pretty much only for leagues/captains now? You DO realize that there are people out there not necessarily playing in leagues who still enjoy actually having to fly their plane?
You do not have to hold the hands of every ****ing noob. Everyone up until this bouncy mode learned to fly with walls that actually HURT you if you crashed into them(WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT?), or they had rubber hull - which is now completely obsolete, since crashing is no big deal anymore. Seriously, wasn't it enough with rubber hull to ease the learning curve?
I guess not.
(reading on)
e1: completely agree with GGQ lol, this fun vs competitive is bull****. I mean seriously, is that where you have to divide? Anything that takes the slightest amount of skill goes into the COMPETITIVE bin, anything else is FUN. Great, let's do a ****ing 100vs100 bouncy football map, now that would be fun! And let's make rubber hull automatically press F+D for you without energy cost, more FUN! LETS HAVE FUN GUYS!
I'm angry, no offense meant really.
e2: I agree so bad with manatee on the point of making 1-50 servers bouncy, and then make the others hardwalls. If you really meant this as holding the hands of noobs, then this would seem ideal eh? Unless you just want to make the game take less skill - and if you want to move in that direction that's fine too. You already have my 20 bucks.
You do not have to hold the hands of every ****ing noob. Everyone up until this bouncy mode learned to fly with walls that actually HURT you if you crashed into them(WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT?), or they had rubber hull - which is now completely obsolete, since crashing is no big deal anymore. Seriously, wasn't it enough with rubber hull to ease the learning curve?
I guess not.
(reading on)
e1: completely agree with GGQ lol, this fun vs competitive is bull****. I mean seriously, is that where you have to divide? Anything that takes the slightest amount of skill goes into the COMPETITIVE bin, anything else is FUN. Great, let's do a ****ing 100vs100 bouncy football map, now that would be fun! And let's make rubber hull automatically press F+D for you without energy cost, more FUN! LETS HAVE FUN GUYS!
I'm angry, no offense meant really.
e2: I agree so bad with manatee on the point of making 1-50 servers bouncy, and then make the others hardwalls. If you really meant this as holding the hands of noobs, then this would seem ideal eh? Unless you just want to make the game take less skill - and if you want to move in that direction that's fine too. You already have my 20 bucks.
NastyManatee
12-08-2009, 09:40 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think if any of the Official Servers (ie #1-#3) are bouncy it is by mistake. I believe that Lamster said it was some update error that caused those servers to revert to bouncy mode. So if those servers are still bouncy it definitely needs to be put to hard walled as there is absolutely no reason to have those servers in bouncy mode.
It looks like the official servers are now all set back to hard walled, so that remedies most of the problems I was having with recent changes. I suppose if people want to populate the numerous bouncy servers instead of official ones, that choice is theirs. Hopefully, in time, they will migrate to the hard wall servers, though I'm still not excited about the idea of making a relatively skill-less version of the game the norm in the meantime.
It looks like the official servers are now all set back to hard walled, so that remedies most of the problems I was having with recent changes. I suppose if people want to populate the numerous bouncy servers instead of official ones, that choice is theirs. Hopefully, in time, they will migrate to the hard wall servers, though I'm still not excited about the idea of making a relatively skill-less version of the game the norm in the meantime.
Karl
12-08-2009, 09:44 PM
Also, I posted about this before, but I feel it has taken on a whole new importance: there needs to be some indication of whether a server is on bouncy or hard walled mode. I hate joining a server and then realizing it's bouncy mode when I didn't think it was going to be. Maybe make a new column in the server list that just says either "HARD" or "SOFT" next to the server or something.
There is a server filter available to filter off softwall servers from your server list.
There is a server filter available to filter off softwall servers from your server list.
GGQ
12-08-2009, 09:48 PM
I agree, make sure it's clear that bouncy walls has 'easy mode' connotations, and that hard walls has 'this is the real game' connotations. Because it's true. That way noobs can feel ok about playing bouncy walls (they're noobs, who's gonna blame them for playing easy mode?), but they know that eventually they are supposed to play hard walls (which they are supposed to... right Karlamster?)
edit- it's done this way in the immensely popular beta for HoN; games where you get bonus exp/money are called 'easy mode' and games without that crutch are just normal games. noobs can play easy mode to get used to the game, but they know that they are expected to play normal games eventually
edit- it's done this way in the immensely popular beta for HoN; games where you get bonus exp/money are called 'easy mode' and games without that crutch are just normal games. noobs can play easy mode to get used to the game, but they know that they are expected to play normal games eventually
Loli.ta
12-08-2009, 09:49 PM
From the point from where I'm standing, I don't think we'll get any newer serious teams from the flock (fLb / ACE survival long). With the amount of bouncy servers, that is what people will play, I wouldn't see them moving into hard walls. I think the compet scene seems to be dying, in a sense. From my stand point.
Sarah Palin
12-08-2009, 09:50 PM
People will choose whatever server they want to play on, as long as the official and tourney servers are hard-walled I have no prob with it. Official bouncy servers was a bug which the devs fixed as soon as they could. There is no game mode that people are "supposed" to spend most of their time on, there are many game modes and people choose what's FUN FOR THEM. Tourneys may center around 5v5 hard-wall TBD on a small rotation of maps, but that doesn't mean this is the only "serious" way to play Alti.
Ferret
12-08-2009, 09:51 PM
Altitude is still the Altitude it's always been, we simply added a fun mode (vs competitive). Altitude had the competitive gaming mode, it desperately needed the "I just want to have fun" mode.
By giving new users a place to master the controls you will soon have a massive influx of players into the competitive servers and eventually the Altitude pro league.
For the past few days I've barely been able to play "altitude as it's always been," usually for spurts of a few minutes with either a server of 5 people or else everyone pinging 400. I wouldn't call this recent revolution "fun," fun is what came before this. The game I bought does not currently exist for me.
I get it, people want to learn with a forgiving environment where walls and terrains aren't deadly if they don't fly perfectly. There should be a perk for that. Making it the server default is a bad choice because I know when I get games I immediately want to play the default options because I assume it's what the makers intend. But you're vastly overestimating people if you think they'll "move on from bouncy to a more competitive, harder, skill requiring environment once they've learned." You've essentially introduced Big Game Hunters to the masses of your game "balanced by professional Starcraft players."
I don't think most new players even know about the options or what they're choosing; I didn't know there was a filter between bouncy and hard until last night, and I wasn't sure it worked when "has players, hard walls" filtered out every server.
By giving new users a place to master the controls you will soon have a massive influx of players into the competitive servers and eventually the Altitude pro league.
For the past few days I've barely been able to play "altitude as it's always been," usually for spurts of a few minutes with either a server of 5 people or else everyone pinging 400. I wouldn't call this recent revolution "fun," fun is what came before this. The game I bought does not currently exist for me.
I get it, people want to learn with a forgiving environment where walls and terrains aren't deadly if they don't fly perfectly. There should be a perk for that. Making it the server default is a bad choice because I know when I get games I immediately want to play the default options because I assume it's what the makers intend. But you're vastly overestimating people if you think they'll "move on from bouncy to a more competitive, harder, skill requiring environment once they've learned." You've essentially introduced Big Game Hunters to the masses of your game "balanced by professional Starcraft players."
I don't think most new players even know about the options or what they're choosing; I didn't know there was a filter between bouncy and hard until last night, and I wasn't sure it worked when "has players, hard walls" filtered out every server.
ORYLY
12-08-2009, 09:54 PM
There is a server filter available to filter off softwall servers from your server list.
But when you have a friend on the server, it's placed in the friends and favorites section. Instead of the filtered section.
But when you have a friend on the server, it's placed in the friends and favorites section. Instead of the filtered section.
nobodyhome
12-08-2009, 09:54 PM
There is a server filter available to filter off softwall servers from your server list.
Quit babying us, I'm certain that Maimer of all people is already aware of this filter. The problem is that when one of our friends joins a bouncy server, that server automatically bypasses our filter and goes under the "favorites and friends list" and it becomes impossible to discern whether the server is bouncy or not ahead of time (unless of course it's clearly indicated on the server name. not always the case).
Quit babying us, I'm certain that Maimer of all people is already aware of this filter. The problem is that when one of our friends joins a bouncy server, that server automatically bypasses our filter and goes under the "favorites and friends list" and it becomes impossible to discern whether the server is bouncy or not ahead of time (unless of course it's clearly indicated on the server name. not always the case).
Kuja900
12-08-2009, 09:55 PM
I think a name change of the servers may be effective. New players are inclined to believe that bouncy walls are the norm and not "easy mode". Adding some easy mode connotation to the title and not calling hard walls something daunting like "hardcore" may help balance out the servers.
Evan20000
12-08-2009, 09:56 PM
I agree we need more hardwall servers. I was talking to some kids who just got the game in a bouncy server. They said something like "Hardcore mode is too hard". Keep in mind they were level 40. O_o I think they need to be weened into hardwall like the rest of us. I remember a moth or so ago there was a server with insta kill walls (That was shut down due to explodets being OP...). It was fun while it lasted, but at this point I'm probably just rambling on.
tl;dr version: +1 Manatee. The only way to win at bouncy is to autojoin official 3.
Also, if they can't fly well, they should use rubber haul. I mean, that's what it's there for.
tl;dr version: +1 Manatee. The only way to win at bouncy is to autojoin official 3.
Also, if they can't fly well, they should use rubber haul. I mean, that's what it's there for.
Tosconi
12-08-2009, 09:58 PM
I wouldn't really say, that it's the majority of players choses the bouncy walls. We casual players are pretty much predetermined by the server demand.
Although official servers got back to the hard wall default option, I hardly see any of the official servers to be played, except for the 3rd one (I think it's most probably due to it's 400 max ping option). I love New England's servers for not being bouncy, but since I'm from Europe - my casual ping is on the american servers about 150, which means...I still can play on a max200 ping server....but if anything happens with my internet connection for any short period of time (like my mail agent receives new emails - i get kicked). I also can not play on the capts. server, due to not know the password... (guys I've been playing this since may, I'm a decent players who doesn't camp or through bombs on opponents, I try to struggle and I really love competitive games - if any of you could invite me on the capts. server - I would be really very grateful).
by my first argument about predeterminance of players I meant, that all of the older players are almost obliged to go to the bouncy servers - just because - official 3 is full, noone on new england, proleague's being used by 2 teams...and there's nothing left actually. I go to a server where I have mates played and they're there just due to the same reason...no other place to go.
Still as the official servers, new england's servers are also hardly always played...it's rather an exception, than a rule - when there're needed 10 ppl there.
I know it's about the money and the server holders who decide...but for instance all of the european servers have bouncy walls. Is there a possibility to limit certain amount of servers to be bouncy. Let's say when 50% of the servers are bouncy, server holders are obliged to make the new one hard. The point is - since the steam release, there've actually pretty many new servers appeared out there - but all of them, all without an exception are bouncy.
Although official servers got back to the hard wall default option, I hardly see any of the official servers to be played, except for the 3rd one (I think it's most probably due to it's 400 max ping option). I love New England's servers for not being bouncy, but since I'm from Europe - my casual ping is on the american servers about 150, which means...I still can play on a max200 ping server....but if anything happens with my internet connection for any short period of time (like my mail agent receives new emails - i get kicked). I also can not play on the capts. server, due to not know the password... (guys I've been playing this since may, I'm a decent players who doesn't camp or through bombs on opponents, I try to struggle and I really love competitive games - if any of you could invite me on the capts. server - I would be really very grateful).
by my first argument about predeterminance of players I meant, that all of the older players are almost obliged to go to the bouncy servers - just because - official 3 is full, noone on new england, proleague's being used by 2 teams...and there's nothing left actually. I go to a server where I have mates played and they're there just due to the same reason...no other place to go.
Still as the official servers, new england's servers are also hardly always played...it's rather an exception, than a rule - when there're needed 10 ppl there.
I know it's about the money and the server holders who decide...but for instance all of the european servers have bouncy walls. Is there a possibility to limit certain amount of servers to be bouncy. Let's say when 50% of the servers are bouncy, server holders are obliged to make the new one hard. The point is - since the steam release, there've actually pretty many new servers appeared out there - but all of them, all without an exception are bouncy.
Flyngbanana
12-08-2009, 10:00 PM
Hopefully the problem will be slightly resolved due to the official servers reverting to hard walls.
Is there a way to get rid of the friends playing on the server automatically makes it top of the list despite of any filters you have applied? Its probably one of the least important things to me.
Is there a way to get rid of the friends playing on the server automatically makes it top of the list despite of any filters you have applied? Its probably one of the least important things to me.
nobodyhome
12-08-2009, 10:01 PM
Certainly I can see why you ever implemented bouncy mode in the first place. There must've been a lot of feedback that you guys received prior to the launch where some players were turned off from playing because this game was too hard because they kept crashing into the walls.
But isn't rubber hull enough for the newbs to get used to flying? The point is to get them accustomed to flying, and when they get better perks, they'll realize that they are using an inferior choice meant for newer players and then move on. Bouncing off of the walls is only "fun" as long as you can't do it any other way without dying--after you get skilled enough to fly without hitting walls, the only thing that bouncy walls does for you is to frustrate you when you see newbs flopping off the floor everywhere.
And I can also see that it would be difficult for you guys to remove this feature since you already put it in and it seems like people are enjoying it. But the amount of handicap that bouncy walls puts in is HUGE, you can literally hit the walls 25+ times without dying, which makes hitting the walls COMPLETELY inconsequential. How are newbs ever going to learn to fly right if they never get punished for hitting the walls? The least you can do is to make it so that bouncy walls hurts you more, keeping it easier than the hard walls but not completely nullifying the effect that a wall has.
But isn't rubber hull enough for the newbs to get used to flying? The point is to get them accustomed to flying, and when they get better perks, they'll realize that they are using an inferior choice meant for newer players and then move on. Bouncing off of the walls is only "fun" as long as you can't do it any other way without dying--after you get skilled enough to fly without hitting walls, the only thing that bouncy walls does for you is to frustrate you when you see newbs flopping off the floor everywhere.
And I can also see that it would be difficult for you guys to remove this feature since you already put it in and it seems like people are enjoying it. But the amount of handicap that bouncy walls puts in is HUGE, you can literally hit the walls 25+ times without dying, which makes hitting the walls COMPLETELY inconsequential. How are newbs ever going to learn to fly right if they never get punished for hitting the walls? The least you can do is to make it so that bouncy walls hurts you more, keeping it easier than the hard walls but not completely nullifying the effect that a wall has.
nesnl
12-08-2009, 10:02 PM
I know people are angry, but at least give it a little time as they just released on Steam. I am having the same problems everyone else is having, I log on and every game that is being played is on bouncy walls, which feels very lame, but at the same time I want to see the game do well and continue to do well into the future. If the way that Lamster / Karl feel is best to bring people into the game is through bouncy servers then let them do it and we can deal with the issues later when the player base is larger.
Karl, as for your comment regarding the server filter, I am fully aware of it. The problem I see with it is that I don't think most players, especially new players, understand the difference. If I remember correctly, a new player actually has all the hard walled servers filtered out initially. I think there needs to be some clear marker that shows the different game types so people understand what they are playing. Just as people said before there needs to be some "easy mode" indicator.
Karl, as for your comment regarding the server filter, I am fully aware of it. The problem I see with it is that I don't think most players, especially new players, understand the difference. If I remember correctly, a new player actually has all the hard walled servers filtered out initially. I think there needs to be some clear marker that shows the different game types so people understand what they are playing. Just as people said before there needs to be some "easy mode" indicator.
innerlyte
12-08-2009, 10:10 PM
What Maimer said. I think Lam and Karl would appreciate it if we could just bear with them through this transitional period.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think if any of the Official Servers (ie #1-#3) are bouncy it is by mistake. I believe that Lamster said it was some update error that caused those servers to revert to bouncy mode. So if those servers are still bouncy it definitely needs to be put to hard walled as there is absolutely no reason to have those servers in bouncy mode.
You're right, except it's Officials #4-7 (the fake official servers).
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think if any of the Official Servers (ie #1-#3) are bouncy it is by mistake. I believe that Lamster said it was some update error that caused those servers to revert to bouncy mode. So if those servers are still bouncy it definitely needs to be put to hard walled as there is absolutely no reason to have those servers in bouncy mode.
You're right, except it's Officials #4-7 (the fake official servers).
Flyngbanana
12-08-2009, 10:11 PM
An easy mode indicator would help persuade some newbies to move over to hard walled servers methinks.
Otherwise whales will be an endangered species..
Otherwise whales will be an endangered species..
[Y]
12-08-2009, 10:23 PM
An easy mode indicator would help persuade some newbies to move over to hard walled servers methinks.
Otherwise whales will be an endangered species..
SAVE THE WHALES!!!! The majority of servers really should be hardwalls...
Otherwise whales will be an endangered species..
SAVE THE WHALES!!!! The majority of servers really should be hardwalls...
Snowsickle
12-08-2009, 10:26 PM
I think it is rather presumptuous to say that new players enjoy bouncy servers more than normal servers. These are people that are downloading the game, installing it, and playing on, most likely, the first populated server they see. 9 times out of 10 this is going to be a bouncy server, and in the rare case that they end up on a normal server, its going to be full of experienced players that are ready to violate them in ways they never imagined possible. So new players definitely are getting the impression that bouncy servers are more fun - it's basically the only thing they can reasonably find a game to play on with similarly skilled players, and nobody enjoys getting destroyed by a bunch of people that have been playing forever. How can we say that new players like easymode when thats the direction every sign is pointing them in?
In fact, at least a few posts on the steam forums have commented that the game feels random and chaotic. Quoting two: "There's little to no team tactics..." and "I can't see myself playing it a lot, it's not like you can manage too much tactics in it due to it fast pace... and I have a lot games to play so". People judge the game on what they first see, and right now they see bouncy servers and a whole lot of them. This, I think, is definitely going to be detrimental to a developing competitive playerbase in the long run.
So what's the solution? I don't know; I like the idea of having wall elasticity based on player level - if the level cap is an accurate gauge of time spent on the game (not being circumvented by fast leveling servers) many players should be able to handle a tougher environment by the time they reach it if they are playing with similarly skilled people. The current situation is a spiralling one and I'm not sure players will attempt low skill level hard wall games on their own without some nudging.
A less extreme option would be to introduce some hard wall servers with level restrictions; sort of an intermediate between bouncy servers and "holy **** what is happening to me" servers.
Intended or not, bouncy servers are seen as the norm and I don't think this is completely due to a desire to play on them.
In fact, at least a few posts on the steam forums have commented that the game feels random and chaotic. Quoting two: "There's little to no team tactics..." and "I can't see myself playing it a lot, it's not like you can manage too much tactics in it due to it fast pace... and I have a lot games to play so". People judge the game on what they first see, and right now they see bouncy servers and a whole lot of them. This, I think, is definitely going to be detrimental to a developing competitive playerbase in the long run.
So what's the solution? I don't know; I like the idea of having wall elasticity based on player level - if the level cap is an accurate gauge of time spent on the game (not being circumvented by fast leveling servers) many players should be able to handle a tougher environment by the time they reach it if they are playing with similarly skilled people. The current situation is a spiralling one and I'm not sure players will attempt low skill level hard wall games on their own without some nudging.
A less extreme option would be to introduce some hard wall servers with level restrictions; sort of an intermediate between bouncy servers and "holy **** what is happening to me" servers.
Intended or not, bouncy servers are seen as the norm and I don't think this is completely due to a desire to play on them.
NastyManatee
12-08-2009, 10:44 PM
Basically it somehow became necessary to turn rubber hull from a perk into a full-time play-style. The funny thing is that rubber hull was implemented as a method to get players used to flying correctly, and it worked as the starter perk since beta opened and generated multitudes of skilled flyers.
If people wanted to play better perks, they got better at flying so they didn't need rubber hull, in much the same way that many higher tier players get better at avoiding damage so they don't need repair drone and can use heavy armor or flexi (situation specific, I know). If you want weening, that's weening, in true and guaranteed form. If you wanted to avoid wall damage, you had to compensate and give other players a green perk advantage, so at least there was still a disadvantage involved with disregarding walls.
A big reason people pick up the game is for perk customization, but let's not bastardize the tried-and-true rubber hull -> better perks system just so everyone who picks up the game can play each perk the second they get it.
With bouncy servers in effect, rubber hull is purposeless, so if this is the system that is stuck with, I think a new green perk should be subbed in for rubber hull.
I'm not trying to harass, Karlam, but I feel this is currently a large divide between the old and the new (as ferret stated above), and needs to be addressed in detail by the part of the community who is feeling the hit the hardest.
If people wanted to play better perks, they got better at flying so they didn't need rubber hull, in much the same way that many higher tier players get better at avoiding damage so they don't need repair drone and can use heavy armor or flexi (situation specific, I know). If you want weening, that's weening, in true and guaranteed form. If you wanted to avoid wall damage, you had to compensate and give other players a green perk advantage, so at least there was still a disadvantage involved with disregarding walls.
A big reason people pick up the game is for perk customization, but let's not bastardize the tried-and-true rubber hull -> better perks system just so everyone who picks up the game can play each perk the second they get it.
With bouncy servers in effect, rubber hull is purposeless, so if this is the system that is stuck with, I think a new green perk should be subbed in for rubber hull.
I'm not trying to harass, Karlam, but I feel this is currently a large divide between the old and the new (as ferret stated above), and needs to be addressed in detail by the part of the community who is feeling the hit the hardest.
Vi*
12-08-2009, 10:48 PM
I definitely agree that there should be indicators for hard/bouncy, and for actually official servers vs fakes, and that default should be hard, and that noobs should see that hard is normal. I'd even agree to making rubber hull bouncier and killing bouncy servers altogether. In the mean time, many of you are contributing to a vicious cycle by logging in, seeing only bouncy servers, and either joining one or logging off rather than trying to start a real game.
I've had no trouble getting people in real games by messaging friends or popping into another server and dragging people out. I agree this is annoying, and hope the issues everyone has mentioned get addressed. There's no need to despair, though.
You've essentially introduced Big Game Hunters to the masses of your game...
Oh god.
Who wants to join my new clan No Bouncy?
I've had no trouble getting people in real games by messaging friends or popping into another server and dragging people out. I agree this is annoying, and hope the issues everyone has mentioned get addressed. There's no need to despair, though.
You've essentially introduced Big Game Hunters to the masses of your game...
Oh god.
Who wants to join my new clan No Bouncy?
Jayfourke
12-08-2009, 10:49 PM
Yeah, balls to the bouncy servers. I'm trying to learn sniplane, and while it's frustrating crashing into a solid wall at high speed, backwards, it doesn't help me learn what I'm doing wrong when I just bounce off it.
nobodyhome
12-09-2009, 12:01 AM
In fact, at least a few posts on the steam forums have commented that the game feels random and chaotic. Quoting two: "There's little to no team tactics..." and "I can't see myself playing it a lot, it's not like you can manage too much tactics in it due to it fast pace... and I have a lot games to play so". People judge the game on what they first see, and right now they see bouncy servers and a whole lot of them. This, I think, is definitely going to be detrimental to a developing competitive playerbase in the long run.
I think this issue (slightly different from the original topic) is important enough to warrant emphasizing. For your reference, here is the link to the post that says there isn't much team tactics, posted by smerles at steam: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12362542#post12362542
One solution I would propose is to lower the player limit on the official servers. I'm not quite talking about the hard ones, cause 7v7 is acceptable although slightly more chaotic than competitive-worthy, but the fun servers I believe are currently at a player limit of 20. 10v10 doesn't quite make for much more than mindless spam.
I think this issue (slightly different from the original topic) is important enough to warrant emphasizing. For your reference, here is the link to the post that says there isn't much team tactics, posted by smerles at steam: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12362542#post12362542
One solution I would propose is to lower the player limit on the official servers. I'm not quite talking about the hard ones, cause 7v7 is acceptable although slightly more chaotic than competitive-worthy, but the fun servers I believe are currently at a player limit of 20. 10v10 doesn't quite make for much more than mindless spam.
eth
12-09-2009, 12:26 AM
Yep, that has been brought up before. But.. IT'S FUN!
I'll stop being a sarcastic asshole now :(
I'll stop being a sarcastic asshole now :(
Sarah Palin
12-09-2009, 12:42 AM
Well keep in mind Alti got a lot younger on average, what with a horde of new players and some old players leaving when their demos expired. The guy on the steam forum played 2 hrs, probably playing in servers with fellow Steamers. Bouncy walls or not, that's not going to give a great impression of the game's potential for skillful play.
The best way to build the community is: keep an eye on the newbies in your server. The ones who are doing really well - give them some encouragement, link them to the wiki, or to the guide forum. Also add some of them to your friend list, and invite them to join you when you play with your pre-Dec5 friends. I know when I was first starting out and my friend list was small, I looked there first thing for games to join. Gradually over time the better players will leave the bouncy servers behind and you'll have more friends to play with! :D
The best way to build the community is: keep an eye on the newbies in your server. The ones who are doing really well - give them some encouragement, link them to the wiki, or to the guide forum. Also add some of them to your friend list, and invite them to join you when you play with your pre-Dec5 friends. I know when I was first starting out and my friend list was small, I looked there first thing for games to join. Gradually over time the better players will leave the bouncy servers behind and you'll have more friends to play with! :D
Pax
12-09-2009, 01:30 AM
First of all, a real new advantage, there are servers in Germany, that is really awesome! (however could you lower the player limit?)
Besides from that, I really got disappointed of the way of playing lately.
The rooms are full of newbies. It is not as competitive as it was before. (I will not complain about the bouncy stuff.)
But seriously, take this advice, don't loose the grip to the veterans. Of course, I understand, you want more costumers.
Could you create more server for full-fledged pilots?
The veterans are your base, don't bomb them away.
Besides from that, I really got disappointed of the way of playing lately.
The rooms are full of newbies. It is not as competitive as it was before. (I will not complain about the bouncy stuff.)
But seriously, take this advice, don't loose the grip to the veterans. Of course, I understand, you want more costumers.
Could you create more server for full-fledged pilots?
The veterans are your base, don't bomb them away.
lamster
12-09-2009, 01:41 AM
The next patch will contain a bouncy/hard wall indicator on the server list.
I do not agree that bouncy walls ruin the game or prevent new players from improving to the point that they find hard walls interesting. I believe the opposite: based on player retention numbers, it appears that bouncy walls lead to greater numbers of highly skilled players down the line. Players with competitive mindsets often find the non-interactive element of dying to obstacles (due to their own poor flight skills) frustrating, whereas interactive deaths (killed by a player) invigorate their competitive drive and show a direct, comparative path for improvement. Players on bouncy servers still have plenty of incentive to learn to fly: hitting walls slows you down and forces you to burn energy speeding back up which in turn makes you an easy target, prevents you from making kills, and prevents you from completing and contributing towards objectives. The only major game-breaking change is that Explodets become much less lethal in bouncy servers. I don't like that part either, but if Explos receive a damage-oriented replacement to Thermo (which seems likely at this point) they will at least be perfectly viable on bouncy servers, even if they're not as interesting as on hard servers.
We have not, nor do we ever intend to abandon our hardcore player base. The official servers are still there as they always have been (except for a brief technical glitch), hard-walled and loosely ping-limited. I have no problem adding a few more hardwall servers with lower ping limits, though there are already several players hosting servers in that niche.
Of course the game changed overnight: the average player went from a 1.5-year vet to a 2-day newbie. Give it a few weeks and the players will stratify once again. Competitive players will seek out challenges. Give your hardcore friends a chance to stop noob-farming the bouncy servers and join you on the hard wall servers. The friend system makes it fairly easy to pack together in a hard wall server. The increasing player base will make it MUCH easier to find high quality games of all types, the new players just need a few weeks to learn the game and find their places.
I do not agree that bouncy walls ruin the game or prevent new players from improving to the point that they find hard walls interesting. I believe the opposite: based on player retention numbers, it appears that bouncy walls lead to greater numbers of highly skilled players down the line. Players with competitive mindsets often find the non-interactive element of dying to obstacles (due to their own poor flight skills) frustrating, whereas interactive deaths (killed by a player) invigorate their competitive drive and show a direct, comparative path for improvement. Players on bouncy servers still have plenty of incentive to learn to fly: hitting walls slows you down and forces you to burn energy speeding back up which in turn makes you an easy target, prevents you from making kills, and prevents you from completing and contributing towards objectives. The only major game-breaking change is that Explodets become much less lethal in bouncy servers. I don't like that part either, but if Explos receive a damage-oriented replacement to Thermo (which seems likely at this point) they will at least be perfectly viable on bouncy servers, even if they're not as interesting as on hard servers.
We have not, nor do we ever intend to abandon our hardcore player base. The official servers are still there as they always have been (except for a brief technical glitch), hard-walled and loosely ping-limited. I have no problem adding a few more hardwall servers with lower ping limits, though there are already several players hosting servers in that niche.
Of course the game changed overnight: the average player went from a 1.5-year vet to a 2-day newbie. Give it a few weeks and the players will stratify once again. Competitive players will seek out challenges. Give your hardcore friends a chance to stop noob-farming the bouncy servers and join you on the hard wall servers. The friend system makes it fairly easy to pack together in a hard wall server. The increasing player base will make it MUCH easier to find high quality games of all types, the new players just need a few weeks to learn the game and find their places.
Tosconi
12-09-2009, 01:48 AM
in addition to what Pax said, I think, that it might be useful for the next couple of weeks establish more "min level 60" servers - as it used to be in june or so. Although the new players seem to get to the level 60 pretty quickly (like in a week or so) it still might help a bit.
But the point is - how is that possible to implement, if the servers are held by the users (which actually decide themselves what they prefer). Or do I get the server creation wrong? In this case - it is maybe useful to make a thread for the server holders, where common users would be able to clarify their preferences...or any other way to connect the actual players with the server holders. Now it seems to be completely random. Maybe it's possible to show a name of the sever holder in the servers name - to actually ask him/her for a change. We really need to connect preferences of the both groups and how if not through communication.
btw - can anyone, who has an account on steam - please post a survey - what steamers actually prefer? Because now it seems we're all talking about our assumptions, but not the facts.
But the point is - how is that possible to implement, if the servers are held by the users (which actually decide themselves what they prefer). Or do I get the server creation wrong? In this case - it is maybe useful to make a thread for the server holders, where common users would be able to clarify their preferences...or any other way to connect the actual players with the server holders. Now it seems to be completely random. Maybe it's possible to show a name of the sever holder in the servers name - to actually ask him/her for a change. We really need to connect preferences of the both groups and how if not through communication.
btw - can anyone, who has an account on steam - please post a survey - what steamers actually prefer? Because now it seems we're all talking about our assumptions, but not the facts.
Evan20000
12-09-2009, 01:56 AM
Thank you Lam. That was exactly what I needed to hear.
When can we expect the next patch? After the steam scene sinks in a little bit?
When can we expect the next patch? After the steam scene sinks in a little bit?
Kuja900
12-09-2009, 03:38 AM
"I just had my first experience on a non-bouncy server and it was a zillion times more fun, though. None of that "bounce here, bounce there, stalls are not a problem" nonsense, and I racked up a lot more kills, too.
Bouncy servers seem to be in the majority now, but I'm hoping (and assuming) that their numbers will decrease as people see how much more fun tough walls are."
-Steam User
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1055230
Bouncy servers seem to be in the majority now, but I'm hoping (and assuming) that their numbers will decrease as people see how much more fun tough walls are."
-Steam User
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1055230
Evan20000
12-09-2009, 03:40 AM
Damn it Kuja, I was just about to post that...
GGQ
12-09-2009, 03:48 AM
I took a quick survey of steam players (or people who bought the game and were less than level 30, anyways) I encountered today; only six responses, so not at all an exhaustive survey, but it might indicate something. Two said they preferred hard walls, the rest said they didn't care and would join any server. None said they preferred bouncy walls. :)
NomNom
12-09-2009, 04:15 AM
I think another problem is since the patch that changed bouncy to default, some of the server admins have not changed their servers back to hard yet because they haven't logged on since. The 5v5 "official" servers (#4 - #7) always used to be hard but the guy who hosts them hasn't been on in a while. Does anyone know his name on the forums?
Those were my favorite servers, especialy the 5v5 tbd maxping 200. The New England servers are nice too but they use custom scale that we don't use in the league so I don't play on them.
More hardwall 5v5 200maxping servers plz!
Those were my favorite servers, especialy the 5v5 tbd maxping 200. The New England servers are nice too but they use custom scale that we don't use in the league so I don't play on them.
More hardwall 5v5 200maxping servers plz!
lamster
12-09-2009, 04:20 AM
Just a quick update: we'll probably be doing a bugfix patch tonight, so the hardwall indicator and addition of new servers won't happen until the next patch (should still be sometime this week).
Apheirox
12-09-2009, 04:44 AM
Hi everybody, I'm one of the new 'Steam' customers. As one of the more advanced players who already knows my way around in the skies, I too am dismayed to find this complete lack of non-bouncy servers which provide for a clearly less-than-full Altitude experience (no, I don't think the many Biplanes lying backside up on the ground shooting at passing-by enemies makes sense, either).
Being based in the EU, I see ONE non-bouncy server with a sub-100 ping delay for me to play on. Which, of course, is empty.
Anyway, I want to rectify what I see as a common misconception that you, the developers, seem to have fallen for:
As of this moment there are 30 hardwall servers and 70 bouncy. Seeing as the majority of servers are run by the community I'm going to have to say that's what's popular.
Now, I'm a long time gamer and I've come across this exact same issue a hundred times before.
The problem is you are placing far too much confidence in the ability of the game server administrators. Unless I am mistaken and the admins are during the server setup phase being asked explicitly to decide on whether to use bouncy or normal walls, admins are rarely familiar with the game on a deeper level and will typically simply use the default settings which I'm guessing are, unfortunately, 'bouncy' walls. That's right: The admins don't have the slightest clue they're running all the servers in 'easy' mode. Trust me on this one!
So, the reason you are finding players in the bouncy servers and they are 'popular' has nothing to do with players making an informed decision - it's simply a matter of server availability. It has absolutely ZIP to do with players preferring bouncy walls. What the average player looks for when browsing for games is low-ping populated servers, NOT advanced settings like wall options. And I assure you this is NOT going to change over the lifetime of the game until the point where only the most hardcore players remain, at which time a game is in fact dying - something you should seek to postpone.
Now, making more non-bouncy servers available is not going to impact sales by any noticeable margin. What it IS going to impact, however, is player enjoyment. For the part of the playerbase which does care about wall settings (supposedly meaning your entire pre-Steam playerbase), the game becomes more enjoyable. For the casual gamer: They won't know what they're missing out on if they never make it past 'bouncy' mode, but they WILL be pleasantly surprised if you take steps to rectify the situation. I can give you an example of why: Many players are finding the Explodet to be a bit weak on the weak side. This is in large part due to the bouncy walls which hinders the Explodet more than the other planes as it is especially reliant on making enemies crash. Effect: Players avoid the 'weak' Explodet, and so the game has only five functional planes instead of six, making the game slightly less exciting. Conclusion: Everybody loses!
This is just one example of why 'bouncy' being mainstream is a bad idea. I could mention a host of others.
As was already suggested, you need to change the wording on the wall modes. Don't scare players away from the 'the real deal'-mode by calling it 'hard' while dumbed-down mode is 'fun'. You really want to imply the exact opposite, that is, along the lines of 'easy' & 'standard' or 'rookie' & 'ace' modes.
You also need to change whatever server software is used so it defaults to the 'hard' wall mode. 'Bouncy' newbie/fun/casual servers are then still entirely possible but won't be the norm, thus not the players' main experience. Don't rely on the server administrators to know this!
Being based in the EU, I see ONE non-bouncy server with a sub-100 ping delay for me to play on. Which, of course, is empty.
Anyway, I want to rectify what I see as a common misconception that you, the developers, seem to have fallen for:
As of this moment there are 30 hardwall servers and 70 bouncy. Seeing as the majority of servers are run by the community I'm going to have to say that's what's popular.
Now, I'm a long time gamer and I've come across this exact same issue a hundred times before.
The problem is you are placing far too much confidence in the ability of the game server administrators. Unless I am mistaken and the admins are during the server setup phase being asked explicitly to decide on whether to use bouncy or normal walls, admins are rarely familiar with the game on a deeper level and will typically simply use the default settings which I'm guessing are, unfortunately, 'bouncy' walls. That's right: The admins don't have the slightest clue they're running all the servers in 'easy' mode. Trust me on this one!
So, the reason you are finding players in the bouncy servers and they are 'popular' has nothing to do with players making an informed decision - it's simply a matter of server availability. It has absolutely ZIP to do with players preferring bouncy walls. What the average player looks for when browsing for games is low-ping populated servers, NOT advanced settings like wall options. And I assure you this is NOT going to change over the lifetime of the game until the point where only the most hardcore players remain, at which time a game is in fact dying - something you should seek to postpone.
Now, making more non-bouncy servers available is not going to impact sales by any noticeable margin. What it IS going to impact, however, is player enjoyment. For the part of the playerbase which does care about wall settings (supposedly meaning your entire pre-Steam playerbase), the game becomes more enjoyable. For the casual gamer: They won't know what they're missing out on if they never make it past 'bouncy' mode, but they WILL be pleasantly surprised if you take steps to rectify the situation. I can give you an example of why: Many players are finding the Explodet to be a bit weak on the weak side. This is in large part due to the bouncy walls which hinders the Explodet more than the other planes as it is especially reliant on making enemies crash. Effect: Players avoid the 'weak' Explodet, and so the game has only five functional planes instead of six, making the game slightly less exciting. Conclusion: Everybody loses!
This is just one example of why 'bouncy' being mainstream is a bad idea. I could mention a host of others.
As was already suggested, you need to change the wording on the wall modes. Don't scare players away from the 'the real deal'-mode by calling it 'hard' while dumbed-down mode is 'fun'. You really want to imply the exact opposite, that is, along the lines of 'easy' & 'standard' or 'rookie' & 'ace' modes.
You also need to change whatever server software is used so it defaults to the 'hard' wall mode. 'Bouncy' newbie/fun/casual servers are then still entirely possible but won't be the norm, thus not the players' main experience. Don't rely on the server administrators to know this!
lamster
12-09-2009, 04:56 AM
Noted. The main issue we want to avoid is new players coming in, suiciding on the walls 15 times, and leaving. The bouncy servers definitely seem to help extremely new players get their bearings. From there we'd like to help players try both configurations and make an informed choice -- the new bouncy/hard indicator column and updated variety of official servers should accomplish that.
Esoteric
12-09-2009, 05:06 AM
I'd support a name change for wall type as well. I'm thinking 'bOUNCYBOUNY' and 'hypoelastic terrain' to make them more attractive to their target markets.
Seriously though, there's other things at play here: new people gravitate towards whatever settings drive away pros.
Thus the bouncy, thus the endless tbd_hills. It can be difficult to tell what "casual" players like for its own sake and what they like because of their greater success (due to the pros fleeing.) In regards to walls most pros despise bouncy and most newer players don't really care overmuch--some marginally prefer it, some marginally don't--but they definitely enjoy the atmosphere. Bouncy walls are an automatic [NO PROS ALLOWED] sign. No elitism, no 1-15 or 15-1 ratios...just Altitude. Makes sense to me.
Seriously though, there's other things at play here: new people gravitate towards whatever settings drive away pros.
Thus the bouncy, thus the endless tbd_hills. It can be difficult to tell what "casual" players like for its own sake and what they like because of their greater success (due to the pros fleeing.) In regards to walls most pros despise bouncy and most newer players don't really care overmuch--some marginally prefer it, some marginally don't--but they definitely enjoy the atmosphere. Bouncy walls are an automatic [NO PROS ALLOWED] sign. No elitism, no 1-15 or 15-1 ratios...just Altitude. Makes sense to me.
Evan20000
12-09-2009, 05:06 AM
Isn't that what the training missions help to remedy?
STACK
12-09-2009, 07:44 AM
Yeah the default bouncy thing was a pretty hard hit :( I definitely support the bouncy servers for new players, but a big mistake was made here. I assume it was just an accident and will be fixed. A lot of people have put up with this so far, but we really REALLY need a revert to hard walls for all the servers that used to be. Keep the official bouncy servers but do another refresh with hard walls as default. If we must continue with either playing with ourselves (no pun intended) or joining a bouncy server, I am afraid you will lose a lot of dedicated players. I love this game and have for years. Please lam, don't take our walls away T_T
Patch default setting back to hard, refresh all servers as hard, set ur officials bouncy servers back to bouncy, fixed.
I know people with private bouncy servers may be slightly inconvenienced, since they will have to change it back to bouncy. However, this is a very simple way to fix this problem.
This was a BIG move in the wrong direction, plz just ctrl-z and let us all just forget this ever happened.
Edit: I have now read throw most~ of this thread and am glad to hear that the officials are back to hard. I would also like to add that hull elasticity scaling with level is abosfreakinglutely brilliant and you deserve a medal snow. Also, the bit about the noob violation was quite lul. I like the idea about adding some low level servers with hard walls as well, I may put up a couple max 25 servers with real walls and enticing names.
Patch default setting back to hard, refresh all servers as hard, set ur officials bouncy servers back to bouncy, fixed.
I know people with private bouncy servers may be slightly inconvenienced, since they will have to change it back to bouncy. However, this is a very simple way to fix this problem.
This was a BIG move in the wrong direction, plz just ctrl-z and let us all just forget this ever happened.
Edit: I have now read throw most~ of this thread and am glad to hear that the officials are back to hard. I would also like to add that hull elasticity scaling with level is abosfreakinglutely brilliant and you deserve a medal snow. Also, the bit about the noob violation was quite lul. I like the idea about adding some low level servers with hard walls as well, I may put up a couple max 25 servers with real walls and enticing names.
evilarsenal
12-09-2009, 08:19 AM
I always get teh kamikaze award... now i can't!
whyyyyy!!!
whyyyyy!!!
nesnl
12-09-2009, 09:57 AM
I like the idea of damage taken by walls being adjusted based on level. This could allow lower level players try out hard walls without getting immediately destroyed in the process. I think the difference needs to be drawn between hull damage and hull elasticity though. One thing I hate about bouncy servers or rubber hull is the rebound effect off of walls, it doesn't feel right and often times makes the situation worse than if I just had normal elasticity.
So I think maybe try this: At level 1 have all users take 5% damage (or some small number other than 0) from wall collisions on hard wall servers. Then have that percentage of damage taken from walls increased by 1.66% (100/60) every level. Thus when the player reaches level 60 they will take 100% damage from wall collisions. But again, the elasticity from wall collisions should always be the same on hard walled servers so that players can get used to reacting and regaining control of their plane after a wall collision.
So I think maybe try this: At level 1 have all users take 5% damage (or some small number other than 0) from wall collisions on hard wall servers. Then have that percentage of damage taken from walls increased by 1.66% (100/60) every level. Thus when the player reaches level 60 they will take 100% damage from wall collisions. But again, the elasticity from wall collisions should always be the same on hard walled servers so that players can get used to reacting and regaining control of their plane after a wall collision.
nesnl
12-09-2009, 10:33 AM
Also, I don't know if it's too late or if you would be willing to do this, but it would be nice to also have a column that shows the max ping for a server. I know that this will end up making a lot of columns, but I feel it is an important piece of information about a server and it would free up space for the sever name instead of putting "maxPing = 400" or whatever. I know that columns take up space, but maybe if you made the fonts smaller or made each column more compact or just devised some system for showing the server options more compactly it would leave more room for the server name.
Anyway, thanks in advance for putting a column for the wall type of the server!
Anyway, thanks in advance for putting a column for the wall type of the server!
DiogenesDog
12-09-2009, 11:48 AM
One solution I would propose is to lower the player limit on the official servers. I'm not quite talking about the hard ones, cause 7v7 is acceptable although slightly more chaotic than competitive-worthy, but the fun servers I believe are currently at a player limit of 20. 10v10 doesn't quite make for much more than mindless spam.
Agree that this is a major source of this perception.
The problem is you are placing far too much confidence in the ability of the game server administrators. Unless I am mistaken and the admins are during the server setup phase being asked explicitly to decide on whether to use bouncy or normal walls, admins are rarely familiar with the game on a deeper level and will typically simply use the default settings which I'm guessing are, unfortunately, 'bouncy' walls. That's right: The admins don't have the slightest clue they're running all the servers in 'easy' mode. Trust me on this one!
Also strongly agree with this. In fact, this came up in chat... I joined a German server for the nice ping, and the Admin overheard some people bitching about bouncy walls. He had never heard of this before, and ended up switching his server over to Hard after the issue was explained.
Maybe a bigger issue to me though is... why does this option even exist? This was the whole reason Rubber Hull was created - why obsolete this perk? Maybe the real solution here is just to get rid of the Bouncy Wall option altogether and buff Rubber Hull so that the damage reduction is much higher (and maybe adds more bounce as well). Hell, then Rubber Hull might even have applications beyond just being training wheels for noobs (FLB picks 4 explodets? say hi to my all Rubber Hull counter-team!). Seems like this would make everyone happy... people on an individual level can have the experience they want without anyone else being affected.
I do not agree that bouncy walls ruin the game or prevent new players from improving to the point that they find hard walls interesting. I believe the opposite: based on player retention numbers, it appears that bouncy walls lead to greater numbers of highly skilled players down the line.
You genuinely have solid numbers showing greater player retention based on how much they play on bouncy servers? That sounds like a difficult piece of info to tease out of the data, given that players just kind of click on whatever's available and probably don't have really clear, consistent preferences. And also because player waves have come in during completely different periods of the game (comparing the apple.com wave to the steam wave is VERY different than just comparing guys primarily playing Hard vs guys primarily playing Bouncy, for instance).
Just curious about the methodology here. I'm a little skeptical. :o
Agree that this is a major source of this perception.
The problem is you are placing far too much confidence in the ability of the game server administrators. Unless I am mistaken and the admins are during the server setup phase being asked explicitly to decide on whether to use bouncy or normal walls, admins are rarely familiar with the game on a deeper level and will typically simply use the default settings which I'm guessing are, unfortunately, 'bouncy' walls. That's right: The admins don't have the slightest clue they're running all the servers in 'easy' mode. Trust me on this one!
Also strongly agree with this. In fact, this came up in chat... I joined a German server for the nice ping, and the Admin overheard some people bitching about bouncy walls. He had never heard of this before, and ended up switching his server over to Hard after the issue was explained.
Maybe a bigger issue to me though is... why does this option even exist? This was the whole reason Rubber Hull was created - why obsolete this perk? Maybe the real solution here is just to get rid of the Bouncy Wall option altogether and buff Rubber Hull so that the damage reduction is much higher (and maybe adds more bounce as well). Hell, then Rubber Hull might even have applications beyond just being training wheels for noobs (FLB picks 4 explodets? say hi to my all Rubber Hull counter-team!). Seems like this would make everyone happy... people on an individual level can have the experience they want without anyone else being affected.
I do not agree that bouncy walls ruin the game or prevent new players from improving to the point that they find hard walls interesting. I believe the opposite: based on player retention numbers, it appears that bouncy walls lead to greater numbers of highly skilled players down the line.
You genuinely have solid numbers showing greater player retention based on how much they play on bouncy servers? That sounds like a difficult piece of info to tease out of the data, given that players just kind of click on whatever's available and probably don't have really clear, consistent preferences. And also because player waves have come in during completely different periods of the game (comparing the apple.com wave to the steam wave is VERY different than just comparing guys primarily playing Hard vs guys primarily playing Bouncy, for instance).
Just curious about the methodology here. I'm a little skeptical. :o
classicallad
12-09-2009, 12:47 PM
Although there were some awesomly valid points that needed addressing in this thread i suggest an admin change the original name of the thread to something more discussive. Its not nice to log on to the forum and immediately see 'This game is going down the pan'
just putting in a penney or two.
just putting in a penney or two.
nesnl
12-09-2009, 12:57 PM
Maybe a bigger issue to me though is... why does this option even exist? This was the whole reason Rubber Hull was created - why obsolete this perk? Maybe the real solution here is just to get rid of the Bouncy Wall option altogether and buff Rubber Hull so that the damage reduction is much higher (and maybe adds more bounce as well). Hell, then Rubber Hull might even have applications beyond just being training wheels for noobs (FLB picks 4 explodets? say hi to my all Rubber Hull counter-team!). Seems like this would make everyone happy... people on an individual level can have the experience they want without anyone else being affected.
I agree with Dio here and I mainly didn't say this before because I feel like they will never change the idea of having bouncy walls servers. But in all honesty, it makes a whole lot more sense to just buff/change rubber hull to mimic the effects of bouncy walled servers and then just get rid of the option.
The whole point of rubber hull when the perks were finished was to be training wheels for newer players. However, now with bouncy walls you are basically saying that now everyone must play with the equivalent of rubber hull equipped. This not only handicaps players who use explodet but it defeats the purpose of rubber hull. The point of rubber hull was basically: if you want to take less damage from crashing then you aren't going to get the benefit of the other great perks like repair, heavy armor, or flexible wings. Now what you are saying to the players is that they get to basically ignore rubber hull and equip the much more powerful green perks without the draw back of using those perks, which is damage from collision.
I understand that you want to ease people into the game. I remember when I first started it was very unforgiving, but I just don't think bouncy servers is the way to go. Let the user decide if they want rubber hull or if they want to trade in that security for another perk. The game feels really watered down and less skill oriented in the bouncy games and I think that it may contribute to not being able to retain players in the long run. Maybe consider the idea of scaling damage from collision with the player's level along with offering them rubber hull.
I agree with Dio here and I mainly didn't say this before because I feel like they will never change the idea of having bouncy walls servers. But in all honesty, it makes a whole lot more sense to just buff/change rubber hull to mimic the effects of bouncy walled servers and then just get rid of the option.
The whole point of rubber hull when the perks were finished was to be training wheels for newer players. However, now with bouncy walls you are basically saying that now everyone must play with the equivalent of rubber hull equipped. This not only handicaps players who use explodet but it defeats the purpose of rubber hull. The point of rubber hull was basically: if you want to take less damage from crashing then you aren't going to get the benefit of the other great perks like repair, heavy armor, or flexible wings. Now what you are saying to the players is that they get to basically ignore rubber hull and equip the much more powerful green perks without the draw back of using those perks, which is damage from collision.
I understand that you want to ease people into the game. I remember when I first started it was very unforgiving, but I just don't think bouncy servers is the way to go. Let the user decide if they want rubber hull or if they want to trade in that security for another perk. The game feels really watered down and less skill oriented in the bouncy games and I think that it may contribute to not being able to retain players in the long run. Maybe consider the idea of scaling damage from collision with the player's level along with offering them rubber hull.
eth
12-09-2009, 01:35 PM
You guys say time and again that bouncy walls is ONLY to ease newbs into the game(not crashing 15 times and leaving the game) - so I don't get why you don't agree with any of the suggestions in this thread? There are a lot of good ones that seem to fit with your purpose for bouncy:
- Damage from walls scaling with level
- Bouncy only from 1-59
- Rubber hull(?!)
Instead we have the entire base pidgeonholed into bouncy servers because of availability(like Apheirox said) - having 60s in bouncy servers seems bad according to your philosophy of easing newbs into the game as well, no?
- Damage from walls scaling with level
- Bouncy only from 1-59
- Rubber hull(?!)
Instead we have the entire base pidgeonholed into bouncy servers because of availability(like Apheirox said) - having 60s in bouncy servers seems bad according to your philosophy of easing newbs into the game as well, no?
cannibal
12-09-2009, 02:04 PM
Just throwing in my two cents as one of the steam newbs that just joined.
Every time I load up the game, I filter the server list by players. I look at the dozen or so that have people and check their pings. I usually join the lowest ping + highest populated server.
Up until seeing this thread, I thought bouncy walls was the way the game was meant to be. Don't think I've ever noticed a hard wall server yet, and certainly haven't played on one. I'm sure they exist, but being new I didn't even know to look for them.
^not me complaining, just sharing my thoughts as a new player. Looking forward to flying hard walls next time!
Every time I load up the game, I filter the server list by players. I look at the dozen or so that have people and check their pings. I usually join the lowest ping + highest populated server.
Up until seeing this thread, I thought bouncy walls was the way the game was meant to be. Don't think I've ever noticed a hard wall server yet, and certainly haven't played on one. I'm sure they exist, but being new I didn't even know to look for them.
^not me complaining, just sharing my thoughts as a new player. Looking forward to flying hard walls next time!
NastyManatee
12-09-2009, 04:43 PM
Thanks to all the new steam players who chimed in, it's good to have your opinions to put more substance to the argument. We vets like to think we know what new players are thinking, but nothing beats your actual thoughts.
I guess I'm only repeating what I, snow, maimer, eth, and so many others said, but it'd be great if some serious considerations went into our recommendations. As new players themselves have testified, there is no informed decision about hard vs bouncy servers, and most new players don't even know hard servers exist, and this fundamentally alters how they perceive the game is meant to be played. These results don't fit into the category of "easing in new players". It's more like watering down the game without letting new players know what they're missing. That's totally forgoing the epic nerf of explodet as well, which is another topic altogether.
Rubber hull boost, elasticity based on level, bouncy servers for levels <60 are all going to be changes that are more intense than a 1.5MB patch, but they meet your goal of easing in new players more directly without game altering side effects, and I'd be happy with any of these changes.
At the very least, please set the default back to hard. As it has been pointed out, there aren't 70 bouncy servers because 7/10ths of all admins prefer bouncy, it's because half of all admins just choose default, and default changed from hard to bouncy without a word. Make the option to have bouncy servers clear and available to admins, but don't change the norm on them.
I guess I'm only repeating what I, snow, maimer, eth, and so many others said, but it'd be great if some serious considerations went into our recommendations. As new players themselves have testified, there is no informed decision about hard vs bouncy servers, and most new players don't even know hard servers exist, and this fundamentally alters how they perceive the game is meant to be played. These results don't fit into the category of "easing in new players". It's more like watering down the game without letting new players know what they're missing. That's totally forgoing the epic nerf of explodet as well, which is another topic altogether.
Rubber hull boost, elasticity based on level, bouncy servers for levels <60 are all going to be changes that are more intense than a 1.5MB patch, but they meet your goal of easing in new players more directly without game altering side effects, and I'd be happy with any of these changes.
At the very least, please set the default back to hard. As it has been pointed out, there aren't 70 bouncy servers because 7/10ths of all admins prefer bouncy, it's because half of all admins just choose default, and default changed from hard to bouncy without a word. Make the option to have bouncy servers clear and available to admins, but don't change the norm on them.
lamster
12-09-2009, 05:42 PM
I have put serious thought into your recommendations.
I don't like automatically scaling damage from walls with levels because it's a confusing hidden mechanic, kind of the same way bouncy walls are poorly documented on the server list right now.
I'm currently leaning towards:
1) Significantly boost rubberized hull; for players who want to ease in to hard servers this will allow a similar experience to bouncy servers in exchange for their green perk slot.
2) Default server setting back to hard. This shouldn't make a huge impact in the grand scheme of things, but it's worth noting that the game was designed around this setting, and I realize it will resolve a few issues with servers whose admins are MIA / haven't updated.
3) Bouncy column on server list
4) Message for new players (less than level 30) when they connect to a server: "This is a bouncy wall server. Bouncy wall servers are ideal for learning the basics and casual games where you'd rather focus on dogfighting and not worry too much about crashing." or "This server has hard walls. If you're still learning how to fly, equip the rubberized hull perk to minimize damage from collisions."
5) More maxLevel=59 bouncy servers, less all level bouncy servers. There will still be uncapped bouncy servers available for those who prefer this setting: I like that bouncy servers create a safe haven for new players and less competitively inclined gamers to enjoy Altitude.
I hope that addresses the major complaints. I'm going to change the thread title to "Bouncy Server Issues" because the other complaints don't feel relevant: lag is the same it always has been, tons of new players flooding servers will cause some chaotic gameplay, and an incidental change to outdated servers does not imply abandoning the veterans or rebalancing the game to cater only to new players.
I don't like automatically scaling damage from walls with levels because it's a confusing hidden mechanic, kind of the same way bouncy walls are poorly documented on the server list right now.
I'm currently leaning towards:
1) Significantly boost rubberized hull; for players who want to ease in to hard servers this will allow a similar experience to bouncy servers in exchange for their green perk slot.
2) Default server setting back to hard. This shouldn't make a huge impact in the grand scheme of things, but it's worth noting that the game was designed around this setting, and I realize it will resolve a few issues with servers whose admins are MIA / haven't updated.
3) Bouncy column on server list
4) Message for new players (less than level 30) when they connect to a server: "This is a bouncy wall server. Bouncy wall servers are ideal for learning the basics and casual games where you'd rather focus on dogfighting and not worry too much about crashing." or "This server has hard walls. If you're still learning how to fly, equip the rubberized hull perk to minimize damage from collisions."
5) More maxLevel=59 bouncy servers, less all level bouncy servers. There will still be uncapped bouncy servers available for those who prefer this setting: I like that bouncy servers create a safe haven for new players and less competitively inclined gamers to enjoy Altitude.
I hope that addresses the major complaints. I'm going to change the thread title to "Bouncy Server Issues" because the other complaints don't feel relevant: lag is the same it always has been, tons of new players flooding servers will cause some chaotic gameplay, and an incidental change to outdated servers does not imply abandoning the veterans or rebalancing the game to cater only to new players.
MonstaFondla
12-09-2009, 05:58 PM
People want to play hardwall.
Such a server is not populated.
There is a solution so that we can painlessly play while waiting for this to change.
Add a "join this server when there are 4 players" button.
Example: I see an empty server, I press that button, and as soon as there are 4> players + people waiting to play at that threshold, we all jump in.
This means us 'hardcore' users can wait for a while in a soft server until there is enough interest in a 'real' server.
Such a server is not populated.
There is a solution so that we can painlessly play while waiting for this to change.
Add a "join this server when there are 4 players" button.
Example: I see an empty server, I press that button, and as soon as there are 4> players + people waiting to play at that threshold, we all jump in.
This means us 'hardcore' users can wait for a while in a soft server until there is enough interest in a 'real' server.
MonstaFondla
12-09-2009, 06:00 PM
I have put serious thought into your recommendations.
These solutions add up to one excellent and nuanced package. I happily play a bit of bouncy and a bit of New England myself, but I can't see how this won't appease the rabidly competitive flyboys.
tl;dr - lamster FTW.
These solutions add up to one excellent and nuanced package. I happily play a bit of bouncy and a bit of New England myself, but I can't see how this won't appease the rabidly competitive flyboys.
tl;dr - lamster FTW.
Ajplagge
12-09-2009, 06:18 PM
Thanks for not making me sit down and write a coherent paragraph.
-bob
Hi everybody, I'm one of the new 'Steam' customers. As one of the more advanced players who already knows my way around in the skies, I too am dismayed to find this complete lack of non-bouncy servers which provide for a clearly less-than-full Altitude experience (no, I don't think the many Biplanes lying backside up on the ground shooting at passing-by enemies makes sense, either).
Being based in the EU, I see ONE non-bouncy server with a sub-100 ping delay for me to play on. Which, of course, is empty.
Anyway, I want to rectify what I see as a common misconception that you, the developers, seem to have fallen for:
Now, I'm a long time gamer and I've come across this exact same issue a hundred times before.
The problem is you are placing far too much confidence in the ability of the game server administrators. Unless I am mistaken and the admins are during the server setup phase being asked explicitly to decide on whether to use bouncy or normal walls, admins are rarely familiar with the game on a deeper level and will typically simply use the default settings which I'm guessing are, unfortunately, 'bouncy' walls. That's right: The admins don't have the slightest clue they're running all the servers in 'easy' mode. Trust me on this one!
So, the reason you are finding players in the bouncy servers and they are 'popular' has nothing to do with players making an informed decision - it's simply a matter of server availability. It has absolutely ZIP to do with players preferring bouncy walls. What the average player looks for when browsing for games is low-ping populated servers, NOT advanced settings like wall options. And I assure you this is NOT going to change over the lifetime of the game until the point where only the most hardcore players remain, at which time a game is in fact dying - something you should seek to postpone.
Now, making more non-bouncy servers available is not going to impact sales by any noticeable margin. What it IS going to impact, however, is player enjoyment. For the part of the playerbase which does care about wall settings (supposedly meaning your entire pre-Steam playerbase), the game becomes more enjoyable. For the casual gamer: They won't know what they're missing out on if they never make it past 'bouncy' mode, but they WILL be pleasantly surprised if you take steps to rectify the situation. I can give you an example of why: Many players are finding the Explodet to be a bit weak on the weak side. This is in large part due to the bouncy walls which hinders the Explodet more than the other planes as it is especially reliant on making enemies crash. Effect: Players avoid the 'weak' Explodet, and so the game has only five functional planes instead of six, making the game slightly less exciting. Conclusion: Everybody loses!
This is just one example of why 'bouncy' being mainstream is a bad idea. I could mention a host of others.
As was already suggested, you need to change the wording on the wall modes. Don't scare players away from the 'the real deal'-mode by calling it 'hard' while dumbed-down mode is 'fun'. You really want to imply the exact opposite, that is, along the lines of 'easy' & 'standard' or 'rookie' & 'ace' modes.
You also need to change whatever server software is used so it defaults to the 'hard' wall mode. 'Bouncy' newbie/fun/casual servers are then still entirely possible but won't be the norm, thus not the players' main experience. Don't rely on the server administrators to know this!
-bob
Hi everybody, I'm one of the new 'Steam' customers. As one of the more advanced players who already knows my way around in the skies, I too am dismayed to find this complete lack of non-bouncy servers which provide for a clearly less-than-full Altitude experience (no, I don't think the many Biplanes lying backside up on the ground shooting at passing-by enemies makes sense, either).
Being based in the EU, I see ONE non-bouncy server with a sub-100 ping delay for me to play on. Which, of course, is empty.
Anyway, I want to rectify what I see as a common misconception that you, the developers, seem to have fallen for:
Now, I'm a long time gamer and I've come across this exact same issue a hundred times before.
The problem is you are placing far too much confidence in the ability of the game server administrators. Unless I am mistaken and the admins are during the server setup phase being asked explicitly to decide on whether to use bouncy or normal walls, admins are rarely familiar with the game on a deeper level and will typically simply use the default settings which I'm guessing are, unfortunately, 'bouncy' walls. That's right: The admins don't have the slightest clue they're running all the servers in 'easy' mode. Trust me on this one!
So, the reason you are finding players in the bouncy servers and they are 'popular' has nothing to do with players making an informed decision - it's simply a matter of server availability. It has absolutely ZIP to do with players preferring bouncy walls. What the average player looks for when browsing for games is low-ping populated servers, NOT advanced settings like wall options. And I assure you this is NOT going to change over the lifetime of the game until the point where only the most hardcore players remain, at which time a game is in fact dying - something you should seek to postpone.
Now, making more non-bouncy servers available is not going to impact sales by any noticeable margin. What it IS going to impact, however, is player enjoyment. For the part of the playerbase which does care about wall settings (supposedly meaning your entire pre-Steam playerbase), the game becomes more enjoyable. For the casual gamer: They won't know what they're missing out on if they never make it past 'bouncy' mode, but they WILL be pleasantly surprised if you take steps to rectify the situation. I can give you an example of why: Many players are finding the Explodet to be a bit weak on the weak side. This is in large part due to the bouncy walls which hinders the Explodet more than the other planes as it is especially reliant on making enemies crash. Effect: Players avoid the 'weak' Explodet, and so the game has only five functional planes instead of six, making the game slightly less exciting. Conclusion: Everybody loses!
This is just one example of why 'bouncy' being mainstream is a bad idea. I could mention a host of others.
As was already suggested, you need to change the wording on the wall modes. Don't scare players away from the 'the real deal'-mode by calling it 'hard' while dumbed-down mode is 'fun'. You really want to imply the exact opposite, that is, along the lines of 'easy' & 'standard' or 'rookie' & 'ace' modes.
You also need to change whatever server software is used so it defaults to the 'hard' wall mode. 'Bouncy' newbie/fun/casual servers are then still entirely possible but won't be the norm, thus not the players' main experience. Don't rely on the server administrators to know this!
Ajplagge
12-09-2009, 06:23 PM
Apheirox put it well, very frustrating to play right now. Looks like next patch should at least make significant headway in fixing the issue though. Thanks Lam
I have put serious thought into your recommendations.
I don't like automatically scaling damage from walls with levels because it's a confusing hidden mechanic, kind of the same way bouncy walls are poorly documented on the server list right now.
I'm currently leaning towards:
1) Significantly boost rubberized hull; for players who want to ease in to hard servers this will allow a similar experience to bouncy servers in exchange for their green perk slot.
2) Default server setting back to hard. This shouldn't make a huge impact in the grand scheme of things, but it's worth noting that the game was designed around this setting, and I realize it will resolve a few issues with servers whose admins are MIA / haven't updated.
3) Bouncy column on server list
4) Message for new players (less than level 30) when they connect to a server: "This is a bouncy wall server. Bouncy wall servers are ideal for learning the basics and casual games where you'd rather focus on dogfighting and not worry too much about crashing." or "This server has hard walls. If you're still learning how to fly, equip the rubberized hull perk to minimize damage from collisions."
5) More maxLevel=59 bouncy servers, less all level bouncy servers. There will still be uncapped bouncy servers available for those who prefer this setting: I like that bouncy servers create a safe haven for new players and less competitively inclined gamers to enjoy Altitude.
I hope that addresses the major complaints. I'm going to change the thread title to "Bouncy Server Issues" because the other complaints don't feel relevant: lag is the same it always has been, tons of new players flooding servers will cause some chaotic gameplay, and an incidental change to outdated servers does not imply abandoning the veterans or rebalancing the game to cater only to new players.
I have put serious thought into your recommendations.
I don't like automatically scaling damage from walls with levels because it's a confusing hidden mechanic, kind of the same way bouncy walls are poorly documented on the server list right now.
I'm currently leaning towards:
1) Significantly boost rubberized hull; for players who want to ease in to hard servers this will allow a similar experience to bouncy servers in exchange for their green perk slot.
2) Default server setting back to hard. This shouldn't make a huge impact in the grand scheme of things, but it's worth noting that the game was designed around this setting, and I realize it will resolve a few issues with servers whose admins are MIA / haven't updated.
3) Bouncy column on server list
4) Message for new players (less than level 30) when they connect to a server: "This is a bouncy wall server. Bouncy wall servers are ideal for learning the basics and casual games where you'd rather focus on dogfighting and not worry too much about crashing." or "This server has hard walls. If you're still learning how to fly, equip the rubberized hull perk to minimize damage from collisions."
5) More maxLevel=59 bouncy servers, less all level bouncy servers. There will still be uncapped bouncy servers available for those who prefer this setting: I like that bouncy servers create a safe haven for new players and less competitively inclined gamers to enjoy Altitude.
I hope that addresses the major complaints. I'm going to change the thread title to "Bouncy Server Issues" because the other complaints don't feel relevant: lag is the same it always has been, tons of new players flooding servers will cause some chaotic gameplay, and an incidental change to outdated servers does not imply abandoning the veterans or rebalancing the game to cater only to new players.
Vi*
12-09-2009, 07:00 PM
Thanks, Lam! I am happy with your solution.
Also, this idea is interesting:
Add a "join this server when there are 4 players" button.
Example: I see an empty server, I press that button, and as soon as there are 4> players + people waiting to play at that threshold, we all jump in.
It's like a server wishlist. Awesome!
Also, this idea is interesting:
Add a "join this server when there are 4 players" button.
Example: I see an empty server, I press that button, and as soon as there are 4> players + people waiting to play at that threshold, we all jump in.
It's like a server wishlist. Awesome!
NomNom
12-09-2009, 08:49 PM
Btw guys I've talked to Phong and he has changed all of his official servers (#4-#7) back to hardwalls. So fill up those 5v5s!
DiogenesDog
12-09-2009, 09:16 PM
I have put serious thought into your recommendations
Quick action like this is why I will always pimp altitude to everyone I meet.
Well, there are other reasons, but that's a big one. :)
Quick action like this is why I will always pimp altitude to everyone I meet.
Well, there are other reasons, but that's a big one. :)
Apheirox
12-09-2009, 10:41 PM
Maybe a bigger issue to me though is... why does this option even exist? This was the whole reason Rubber Hull was created - why obsolete this perk? Maybe the real solution here is just to get rid of the Bouncy Wall option altogether and buff Rubber Hull so that the damage reduction is much higher (and maybe adds more bounce as well). Hell, then Rubber Hull might even have applications beyond just being training wheels for noobs (FLB picks 4 explodets? say hi to my all Rubber Hull counter-team!). Seems like this would make everyone happy... people on an individual level can have the experience they want without anyone else being affected.
I wholeheartedly agree. There is something very important in this. Read on below.
I have put serious thought into your recommendations.
It is obvious that this is a game that receives the full support it deserves from its developers. That is one of the ingredients that discerns an outstanding game worth getting seriously into from a piece of mindless cookie-cutter electronic entertainment. Attention to detail distincts 'great' from 'fun for a while'.
I'm currently leaning towards:
1) Significantly boost rubberized hull; for players who want to ease in to hard servers this will allow a similar experience to bouncy servers in exchange for their green perk slot.
4) Message for new players (less than level 30) when they connect to a server: "This is a bouncy wall server. Bouncy wall servers are ideal for learning the basics and casual games where you'd rather focus on dogfighting and not worry too much about crashing." or "This server has hard walls. If you're still learning how to fly, equip the rubberized hull perk to minimize damage from collisions."
I hope that addresses the major complaints.
This will no doubt address the major complaints, but I'm not entirely happy for the same reasons listed in the first quoted post: You are obsoleting game elements, effectively removing them from the game. Your suggested solution will solidify the status of Rubberized Hull as nothing more than 'the newbie stuff you use for as long as nothing better is available'. This is a mistake.
Instead, rework Rubberized Hull so it becomes an entirely valid (albeit highly specialized) option at even high level play. How this is done is open for discussion (I think Diogenes is on to something useful though) but that it should be done is not.
As such, just like Diogenes, I am against the whole concept of bouncy/non-bouncy wall servers. Instead, remove the whole option for bouncy walls and buff Rubberized Hull. This both simplifies and perfects the game.
I wholeheartedly agree. There is something very important in this. Read on below.
I have put serious thought into your recommendations.
It is obvious that this is a game that receives the full support it deserves from its developers. That is one of the ingredients that discerns an outstanding game worth getting seriously into from a piece of mindless cookie-cutter electronic entertainment. Attention to detail distincts 'great' from 'fun for a while'.
I'm currently leaning towards:
1) Significantly boost rubberized hull; for players who want to ease in to hard servers this will allow a similar experience to bouncy servers in exchange for their green perk slot.
4) Message for new players (less than level 30) when they connect to a server: "This is a bouncy wall server. Bouncy wall servers are ideal for learning the basics and casual games where you'd rather focus on dogfighting and not worry too much about crashing." or "This server has hard walls. If you're still learning how to fly, equip the rubberized hull perk to minimize damage from collisions."
I hope that addresses the major complaints.
This will no doubt address the major complaints, but I'm not entirely happy for the same reasons listed in the first quoted post: You are obsoleting game elements, effectively removing them from the game. Your suggested solution will solidify the status of Rubberized Hull as nothing more than 'the newbie stuff you use for as long as nothing better is available'. This is a mistake.
Instead, rework Rubberized Hull so it becomes an entirely valid (albeit highly specialized) option at even high level play. How this is done is open for discussion (I think Diogenes is on to something useful though) but that it should be done is not.
As such, just like Diogenes, I am against the whole concept of bouncy/non-bouncy wall servers. Instead, remove the whole option for bouncy walls and buff Rubberized Hull. This both simplifies and perfects the game.
Apheirox
12-09-2009, 10:50 PM
Really, just think about how much fun it could be: If Rubberized Hull was made truly bouncy, it would open up the door for whole new tactics - especially in the objective-oriented games. Suddenly you might have bouncing, bomb-carrying Loopies making mad dashes for the enemy base, intentionally ramming the wall at full speed to ricochet off it in a new direction and throwing off the pursuers.
I realize this would require careful balancing and is easier said than done but the rewards are equally great in adding a whole new layer of tactics the game. Loopy + DoubleShot + Rubberized Hull = Sniplane, meet Luna[tic]bomber!
I realize this would require careful balancing and is easier said than done but the rewards are equally great in adding a whole new layer of tactics the game. Loopy + DoubleShot + Rubberized Hull = Sniplane, meet Luna[tic]bomber!
Pieface
12-09-2009, 11:01 PM
I posted this thread over on the Steam forums the other day:
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12391161#post12391161
From those who responded, it would seem that the majority of Steam users play bouncy just because those are the more populated servers and that they make up the majority of places to play. There also seems to be a general consensus over there that in the long term hard walls end up making for a much more enjoyable game experience.
Lam, I think the updates you suggested would certainly help with this problem, but I still agree with others that it would make much more sense to just buff Rubber Hull and take away the Bouncy Servers altogether. Levels 1-30 is a prime time for experimenting with new planes, and if the demos learn to play in bouncy servers Explodet will eventually become an even less used plane than the bomber is now.
While you and Karl have had countless great ideas in the past for this wonderful game, I regret saying that adding Bouncy Servers was not one of them. Instead of coming up with more ideas to remedy the problem, it might be worthwhile to just think a bit more about whether this feature was really the best thing for the game from the beginning.
Whatever you decide, I'm sure it won't come without some thought about the consequences. Thanks for taking this issue seriously and working to solve these problems!
Edit: Just noticed that Kuja already posted the link. However, if you haven't already looked then it would be a good idea because these players are part of the group that Bouncy was originally intended to help.
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12391161#post12391161
From those who responded, it would seem that the majority of Steam users play bouncy just because those are the more populated servers and that they make up the majority of places to play. There also seems to be a general consensus over there that in the long term hard walls end up making for a much more enjoyable game experience.
Lam, I think the updates you suggested would certainly help with this problem, but I still agree with others that it would make much more sense to just buff Rubber Hull and take away the Bouncy Servers altogether. Levels 1-30 is a prime time for experimenting with new planes, and if the demos learn to play in bouncy servers Explodet will eventually become an even less used plane than the bomber is now.
While you and Karl have had countless great ideas in the past for this wonderful game, I regret saying that adding Bouncy Servers was not one of them. Instead of coming up with more ideas to remedy the problem, it might be worthwhile to just think a bit more about whether this feature was really the best thing for the game from the beginning.
Whatever you decide, I'm sure it won't come without some thought about the consequences. Thanks for taking this issue seriously and working to solve these problems!
Edit: Just noticed that Kuja already posted the link. However, if you haven't already looked then it would be a good idea because these players are part of the group that Bouncy was originally intended to help.
STACK
12-10-2009, 09:31 AM
I have put serious thought into your recommendations.
Exactly what I was looking for, sounds exceptional lam. I noticed a lot of the new players coming to check out the hard walls in the official servers today. They didn't even know about hard walls and seem to prefer them. This was all just a little mix up :p
Exactly what I was looking for, sounds exceptional lam. I noticed a lot of the new players coming to check out the hard walls in the official servers today. They didn't even know about hard walls and seem to prefer them. This was all just a little mix up :p
uberknarf
12-10-2009, 07:00 PM
Quick action like this is why I will always pimp altitude to everyone I meet.
Well, there are other reasons, but that's a big one. :)
I'm with you on that. It's incredibly refreshing to have developers so ready and willing to respond to the playerbase.
Kudos, Karl and Lam!
(To the topic itself: As an explo player, I'm hoping this brings things back into balance. As long as the rubber perk buff isn't giving vet's a "get out of explojail free" card, I'll be happy with the changes. Either way, I'm confident that you guys will great it right eventually. And thanks, Nasty, for the having the patience and eloquence to speak up. May it never be said that majestic sea beasts just float around taking up space all day.)
Well, there are other reasons, but that's a big one. :)
I'm with you on that. It's incredibly refreshing to have developers so ready and willing to respond to the playerbase.
Kudos, Karl and Lam!
(To the topic itself: As an explo player, I'm hoping this brings things back into balance. As long as the rubber perk buff isn't giving vet's a "get out of explojail free" card, I'll be happy with the changes. Either way, I'm confident that you guys will great it right eventually. And thanks, Nasty, for the having the patience and eloquence to speak up. May it never be said that majestic sea beasts just float around taking up space all day.)
bolderz
12-10-2009, 07:41 PM
Hey, I was looking to play hard walled last night but couldn't find any. I haven't given my opinion on the steam forum bouncy vs no-bouncy yet because I haven't really played hard walled yet enough to give an opinion.
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