Beagle
01-07-2010, 01:11 AM
Can certain mods act a little bit more responsibly?
I just got done with yet another ban (at least it was only a week) for posting a picture that said "quit getting mad at video games" in that thread where everyone was at each other's hackles going insane about Bomber. The only thing I was told was "Violation of Terms and Rules".
If I'd written "Quit getting mad at video games" I really doubt there'd have been an issue, so am I to understand posting a picture is an instant red card now? Until the "Terms and Rules" are updated to reflect that, I'd like to ask certain mods to consider whether their job is to moderate the forums and keep things nice, or whether its just to ban people they don't like for kicks.
There's no appeal system, no way to argue the legitimacy. If some mod here doesn't like me, they get to ban me and I can't say anything about it 'till I get back. It starting to feel kind of Nazi Germany around here so I thought I'd make this thread and ask people to chill out. It's a forum for talking about Altitude, you don't have to persecute every single possible breach of the rules with extreme prejudice, and you don't have to 'get one up on me'.
Or, if you do feel the need to do that, then permaban me and be done with it, thanks!
I just got done with yet another ban (at least it was only a week) for posting a picture that said "quit getting mad at video games" in that thread where everyone was at each other's hackles going insane about Bomber. The only thing I was told was "Violation of Terms and Rules".
If I'd written "Quit getting mad at video games" I really doubt there'd have been an issue, so am I to understand posting a picture is an instant red card now? Until the "Terms and Rules" are updated to reflect that, I'd like to ask certain mods to consider whether their job is to moderate the forums and keep things nice, or whether its just to ban people they don't like for kicks.
There's no appeal system, no way to argue the legitimacy. If some mod here doesn't like me, they get to ban me and I can't say anything about it 'till I get back. It starting to feel kind of Nazi Germany around here so I thought I'd make this thread and ask people to chill out. It's a forum for talking about Altitude, you don't have to persecute every single possible breach of the rules with extreme prejudice, and you don't have to 'get one up on me'.
Or, if you do feel the need to do that, then permaban me and be done with it, thanks!
eth
01-07-2010, 01:45 AM
Yah getting banned for that pic was beyond ridiculous lol. I'd also like to chime in that the style of moderation is a bit weird - I can get that you ban for calling people idiots(even if they are), but I think there should be some kinda content moderation as well. 99% of the content these days is pure ****, and most posters just post retarded **** in completely unintelligible english.. I mean if you ported over the posters here to teamliquid, there'd only be a couple left unbanned(and I appreciate the fact that this isn't teamliquid, but it's still getting a bit ridiculous).
STACK
01-07-2010, 01:57 AM
Yeah I just learned that posting pics, even in the water cooler, is apparently against the rules as well. What a joke, lewl. To many noob mods imo (aka Kuj). Screw all of us who have been around for years. Screw em well. Forget about the kids in the 30 player teams spewing endless bullsnit, insults, and downright offensive material. We need to get rid of these god damned old timers who have done nothing but build our community and give back to the game in any way they can. We need more worthless no name moderators and less people who know what the **** is going on. I mean someone like Beags with 1000 posts obviously doesn't know the rules and is here to ruin everyones experience. Why is he not banned for life? Same can be said for myself. I mean I have been around for what, 6 years? 7? I surely have never added anything constructive to the community either. Better not let a single bullsnit, ass backwards, retarded, unsanctioned, ridiculous discretionary call slip through your smelly infraction happy fingers. Wouldn't want a bunch of informative, relative, and genuinely kind people ruining these forums. Get rid of us bastards already!
nobodyhome
01-07-2010, 02:21 AM
I'd like to chime in with a +1.
I mean, I understand that this is the official forums for a game so you can't ban people who make millions of useless contentless posts like ajuk999 without breaking any real rules, but then you go ahead and ban major contributers like beagle (he wrote a goddamn guide jeez) for just posting a picture (a useful picture that contributed to the thread way more than any of the useless spam that others get away with).
And then you have mods who abuse their powers by editing other peoples' posts (just for lulz, or to mess with people in the mafia thread) and then collecting all of wolf'j'max's incomprehensible posts together in one thread (funny, but have some respect for your mod powers).
I mean, I understand that this is the official forums for a game so you can't ban people who make millions of useless contentless posts like ajuk999 without breaking any real rules, but then you go ahead and ban major contributers like beagle (he wrote a goddamn guide jeez) for just posting a picture (a useful picture that contributed to the thread way more than any of the useless spam that others get away with).
And then you have mods who abuse their powers by editing other peoples' posts (just for lulz, or to mess with people in the mafia thread) and then collecting all of wolf'j'max's incomprehensible posts together in one thread (funny, but have some respect for your mod powers).
CCN
01-07-2010, 02:23 AM
My post seems to have gone to the ether so ill try again.
My main wtf moment is the banning of the clan page due to them "not being a benefit to the community.". Seems like a weird reason. The follow on reason of trolling their own clan page iono much about.
My main wtf moment is the banning of the clan page due to them "not being a benefit to the community.". Seems like a weird reason. The follow on reason of trolling their own clan page iono much about.
Pieface
01-07-2010, 02:33 AM
I'd fully support a system for appealing bans. At the moment, Mods can appeal other people's infractions and bans to Lamster or Karl and get them reversed, and members can appeal the infractions they are given to the one who infracted them, but there is no way to appeal a temp-ban. I know I for one didn't even know Beagle had been banned again until I saw this post, and after seeing what he got the infraction for I agree that it was ridiculous. Not giving the option to appeal a ban is also one of the things that keeps members like Blue/Wood and Olbermann77/Ajuk999 coming back and creating new accounts to evade infractions and old bans (I mean no offense here, just wanted to give an example). I think having a real way to appeal these bans would help us out of a lot of problems that occur on the forums.
If anyone has a real suggestion for how to implement such a system, I'd love to hear it. The first thing that comes to mind is a private subforum visible only to those who are banned, the Mods, and the Admins that would be the go-to place to appeal your ban and have it formally considered. Unfortunately, this wouldn't prevent spam-bots from continuing to post "click here to shop at Pharmacy.com for all your health needs!" posts after they were banned. Still, if anyone has any ideas for how the system could be improved it would be great to hear them, since without a doubt it can only go uphill from how it is now.
People like Beagle who often post useful and constructive things valuable to the community should not be banned from the forums for something like that. I've made a request for that infraction to be reversed, but in the meantime let's brainstorm how we can try to do better from now on!
Edit in response to CCN: if you are referring to the {r87} clan page, it was closed because about four of the members (including the leaders) continued to spam the forums with threads saying nothing but things like "that kuja is a ****ing asshole she deserves to die" and such things. When the OPs were temp-banned for trolling, they continued to create many new accounts just to keep spamming the forums with hateful messages. Lamster agreed that those involved were more detrimental to the forum than helpful to it. The members that continued creating new accounts to continue to troll were IP-banned by the devs and the thread was closed.
If anyone has a real suggestion for how to implement such a system, I'd love to hear it. The first thing that comes to mind is a private subforum visible only to those who are banned, the Mods, and the Admins that would be the go-to place to appeal your ban and have it formally considered. Unfortunately, this wouldn't prevent spam-bots from continuing to post "click here to shop at Pharmacy.com for all your health needs!" posts after they were banned. Still, if anyone has any ideas for how the system could be improved it would be great to hear them, since without a doubt it can only go uphill from how it is now.
People like Beagle who often post useful and constructive things valuable to the community should not be banned from the forums for something like that. I've made a request for that infraction to be reversed, but in the meantime let's brainstorm how we can try to do better from now on!
Edit in response to CCN: if you are referring to the {r87} clan page, it was closed because about four of the members (including the leaders) continued to spam the forums with threads saying nothing but things like "that kuja is a ****ing asshole she deserves to die" and such things. When the OPs were temp-banned for trolling, they continued to create many new accounts just to keep spamming the forums with hateful messages. Lamster agreed that those involved were more detrimental to the forum than helpful to it. The members that continued creating new accounts to continue to troll were IP-banned by the devs and the thread was closed.
STACK
01-07-2010, 02:39 AM
Hmmm so you can appeal the infraction to the bullsnit mod that wrote you up, except they put you on ignore because they cannot handle a confrontation through the internet. Flawless system
Pieface
01-07-2010, 02:44 AM
Hmmm so you can appeal the infraction to the bullsnit mod that wrote you up, except they put you on ignore because they cannot handle a confrontation through the internet. Flawless system
What I suggested - if you had read my post - was a forum for those who recently got infractions or had been banned to appeal those to the other Mods or Admins. I really think there needs to be put in place some system to take care of these issues, because as you have pointed out what we have now can hardly be called a system.
What I suggested - if you had read my post - was a forum for those who recently got infractions or had been banned to appeal those to the other Mods or Admins. I really think there needs to be put in place some system to take care of these issues, because as you have pointed out what we have now can hardly be called a system.
CCN
01-07-2010, 02:49 AM
Pie:
I didn't see these hatefilled messages so I guess someone got on those pretty quick.
IF they truly did these they deserved to be banned.
If all members of r87 did this the clan deserved to be banned, but if its not all r87 members I wonder how the remainder of the clan feels about the situation, I read they can restart their page so iono here so i'll neutral it up thanks for the clarification.
Question:
IP bans are ineffective i'm assuming or have they stopped spamming when you banned the clan page?
I didn't see these hatefilled messages so I guess someone got on those pretty quick.
IF they truly did these they deserved to be banned.
If all members of r87 did this the clan deserved to be banned, but if its not all r87 members I wonder how the remainder of the clan feels about the situation, I read they can restart their page so iono here so i'll neutral it up thanks for the clarification.
Question:
IP bans are ineffective i'm assuming or have they stopped spamming when you banned the clan page?
Kuja900
01-07-2010, 02:50 AM
My post seems to have gone to the ether so ill try again.
My main wtf moment is the banning of the clan page due to them "not being a benefit to the community.". Seems like a weird reason. The follow on reason of trolling their own clan page iono much about.
Trust me that was completely justified. The remaining unbanned members are free to remake their thread if they wish.
My main wtf moment is the banning of the clan page due to them "not being a benefit to the community.". Seems like a weird reason. The follow on reason of trolling their own clan page iono much about.
Trust me that was completely justified. The remaining unbanned members are free to remake their thread if they wish.
mikesol
01-07-2010, 03:35 AM
Also in agreeance,
when I saw Beagle's ban after that latest post I was like "wtf?" Ok sure there have been a post here and there that I've seen deserved like a fraction but that picture was hardly out of line in my eyes.
Now I understand that maybe things were interpreted differently or frustration caused it or something. However, it reveals a huge flaw in this system - one where the administrators hardly have any part in this at all. I understand lam and karl are busy doing this stuff and work 80 hours a week. However, as part of the upkeep of the game I feel that if someone is banned multiple times that should be something looked into by the administration and see what is going on - if the user is really violating the rules or if, perhaps, the moderators need to have the rules explained to them. They might be making calls they feel are justified based on a mis-interpretation of the rules or maybe there are rules that need to be fixed.
Often times in servers people might make a call they feel is justified but doesn't violate the rules the person running the server set into place. A simple re-evaluation of the rules or explanation of them would suffice.
when I saw Beagle's ban after that latest post I was like "wtf?" Ok sure there have been a post here and there that I've seen deserved like a fraction but that picture was hardly out of line in my eyes.
Now I understand that maybe things were interpreted differently or frustration caused it or something. However, it reveals a huge flaw in this system - one where the administrators hardly have any part in this at all. I understand lam and karl are busy doing this stuff and work 80 hours a week. However, as part of the upkeep of the game I feel that if someone is banned multiple times that should be something looked into by the administration and see what is going on - if the user is really violating the rules or if, perhaps, the moderators need to have the rules explained to them. They might be making calls they feel are justified based on a mis-interpretation of the rules or maybe there are rules that need to be fixed.
Often times in servers people might make a call they feel is justified but doesn't violate the rules the person running the server set into place. A simple re-evaluation of the rules or explanation of them would suffice.
tgleaf
01-07-2010, 04:06 AM
you can't ban people who make millions of useless contentless posts like ajuk999 without breaking any real rules
Oh, but I would pay good money for that.
Oh, but I would pay good money for that.
Ferret
01-07-2010, 04:08 AM
I want bonus points for getting Kuja to edit my post and then delete a thread after he said he owned me and I replyed by posting a screenshot where I forced him under 1:1. Then again whoever put the 12 year old who pretends to be a girl in charge of anything probably didn't expect anything less.
And from my understanding you have to get 5 infractions to get banned? So he picked up one that might be a gray area to some people, what about the other 4? Is the "5th infraction that will cause a ban" supposed to be special just because someone was stupid enough to pick up 4 previously? Maybe the internet is too small and needs a place you can go to meaninglessly spam images at people.
And from my understanding you have to get 5 infractions to get banned? So he picked up one that might be a gray area to some people, what about the other 4? Is the "5th infraction that will cause a ban" supposed to be special just because someone was stupid enough to pick up 4 previously? Maybe the internet is too small and needs a place you can go to meaninglessly spam images at people.
Kuja900
01-07-2010, 04:21 AM
I want bonus points for getting Kuja to edit my post and then delete a thread after he said he owned me and I replyed by posting a screenshot where I forced him under 1:1. Then again whoever put the 12 year old who pretends to be a girl in charge of anything probably didn't expect anything less.
And from my understanding you have to get 5 infractions to get banned? So he picked up one that might be a gray area to some people, what about the other 4? Is the "5th infraction that will cause a ban" supposed to be special just because someone was stupid enough to pick up 4 previously? Maybe the internet is too small and needs a place you can go to meaninglessly spam images at people.
I did not edit your post and that thread was deleted because it was poorly made and their was another thread that covered virtually the exact same topic except of higher quality. Mods do have the power to just hand out temp bans regardless of infractions for more blatant/serious offenders. Beagle imo is a quality poster and I did disagree with his temp ban.
And from my understanding you have to get 5 infractions to get banned? So he picked up one that might be a gray area to some people, what about the other 4? Is the "5th infraction that will cause a ban" supposed to be special just because someone was stupid enough to pick up 4 previously? Maybe the internet is too small and needs a place you can go to meaninglessly spam images at people.
I did not edit your post and that thread was deleted because it was poorly made and their was another thread that covered virtually the exact same topic except of higher quality. Mods do have the power to just hand out temp bans regardless of infractions for more blatant/serious offenders. Beagle imo is a quality poster and I did disagree with his temp ban.
Vi*
01-07-2010, 04:25 AM
I did not edit your post and that thread was deleted because it was poorly made and their was another thread that covered virtually the exact same topic except of higher quality.
Just so you know, there's a merge threads option.
Just so you know, there's a merge threads option.
Kuja900
01-07-2010, 04:27 AM
Just so you know, there's a merge threads option.
I am aware.
I am aware.
Beagle
01-07-2010, 04:28 AM
let's brainstorm how we can try to do better from now on!
We see a ton of mod action but not a lot of results. We have a lot of mods and they're constantly closing threads, giving infractions for rule breaking, doling out their justice and wise words wherever applicable.
Thread closing in particular is getting kind of ridiculous. What good is it to "close a thread because I can't see any more discussion necessary?"
Apart from sounding really arrogant, you've got these results from closing a thread like that:
1. If there wasn't going to be any more discussion, who cares, no need to close it
2. If there was, now they're going to start ANOTHER thread for it.
Infraction-shooting is also a bit funny. We've got a bunch of mods looking for excuses to whip out red cards while, as others here have expressed, the quality of the posters and posts on the forum goes consistently down.
Maybe instead of sticking to the rules like glue, you guys could use infractions as tools to shape the community for the better? Okay, blah-de-blah blah McSmith just broke a minor rule with that post. Is that post detracting from the quality of this place? No? Who cares then?
BlahdieBlah McSaul just made a completely retarded spam thread saying "I think you guys should make Altitude into 3D! Hit me up with your replies" in the suggestions forum. He didn't break any rules, but is this a bad post? Can I either A. Use yellow cards to warn him this is not good behaviour or B. PM him and explain how to be better or C. Both? Is that not my job as a moderator?
If your response to the above is something like "Eh, who cares" then why are you a mod? I don't think this place needs to be so serious either, but if you're going to kick our asses so hard, there's no excuse not to do your job when it comes to these people too.
We've got a bunch of people who like being mods because its like being the internet police. Suit up, look for excuses to cite the rules, give out satisfying infractions. Posters with their head on straight get punished harder because 'they should know better' or some such illogical ideal, and new posters who pollute the place to the point that it takes an hour to find an actual thought-out suggestion in 'Suggestions' get off scot-free because they're new.
Maybe mods could take a step back, stop focusing on how many direct actions they take every day, and look at the bigger picture?
We see a ton of mod action but not a lot of results. We have a lot of mods and they're constantly closing threads, giving infractions for rule breaking, doling out their justice and wise words wherever applicable.
Thread closing in particular is getting kind of ridiculous. What good is it to "close a thread because I can't see any more discussion necessary?"
Apart from sounding really arrogant, you've got these results from closing a thread like that:
1. If there wasn't going to be any more discussion, who cares, no need to close it
2. If there was, now they're going to start ANOTHER thread for it.
Infraction-shooting is also a bit funny. We've got a bunch of mods looking for excuses to whip out red cards while, as others here have expressed, the quality of the posters and posts on the forum goes consistently down.
Maybe instead of sticking to the rules like glue, you guys could use infractions as tools to shape the community for the better? Okay, blah-de-blah blah McSmith just broke a minor rule with that post. Is that post detracting from the quality of this place? No? Who cares then?
BlahdieBlah McSaul just made a completely retarded spam thread saying "I think you guys should make Altitude into 3D! Hit me up with your replies" in the suggestions forum. He didn't break any rules, but is this a bad post? Can I either A. Use yellow cards to warn him this is not good behaviour or B. PM him and explain how to be better or C. Both? Is that not my job as a moderator?
If your response to the above is something like "Eh, who cares" then why are you a mod? I don't think this place needs to be so serious either, but if you're going to kick our asses so hard, there's no excuse not to do your job when it comes to these people too.
We've got a bunch of people who like being mods because its like being the internet police. Suit up, look for excuses to cite the rules, give out satisfying infractions. Posters with their head on straight get punished harder because 'they should know better' or some such illogical ideal, and new posters who pollute the place to the point that it takes an hour to find an actual thought-out suggestion in 'Suggestions' get off scot-free because they're new.
Maybe mods could take a step back, stop focusing on how many direct actions they take every day, and look at the bigger picture?
Kildayen
01-07-2010, 04:49 AM
A brief glance at the forum rules should show you why the mods took action. The real issue is that you violated the rules and made a thread to complain about it.
Garbage like this is the main reason I don't follow these forums anymore.
Garbage like this is the main reason I don't follow these forums anymore.
[Y]
01-07-2010, 05:16 AM
Oh, how I lol'd for the few minutes sunshineduck's post was up.
I wonder how many IP addresses Kuja's gonna go through before he run out of computers to create a multi with.
He've got determination, I'll give him that. Nothing's deadlier than a troll with nothing to lose.
I wonder how many IP addresses Kuja's gonna go through before he run out of computers to create a multi with.
He've got determination, I'll give him that. Nothing's deadlier than a troll with nothing to lose.
Kuja900
01-07-2010, 05:19 AM
Its a troll whining about getting banned, his ip banning was a consensus amongst the moderators and not at all a personal vendetta. Please do not repost his whine.
Kuja900
01-07-2010, 05:21 AM
Since I'm "friends" with both ssd and Kuja, I'll keep this short and sweet:
Sounds like ssd did something along the lines of what Kuja et al on Kuja's thread have been doing and got super-banned for it. Then ssd got out of line (shocker!) and got further banned. Uh huh.
Oh, and the mods are abusing their powers. A little help from Karl and Lamster, now? What's the ruling???
Certain moderators behave differently than others, no mod is abusing their power per say imo, however I must admit some of their choices are questionable in terms of right or wrong.
Sounds like ssd did something along the lines of what Kuja et al on Kuja's thread have been doing and got super-banned for it. Then ssd got out of line (shocker!) and got further banned. Uh huh.
Oh, and the mods are abusing their powers. A little help from Karl and Lamster, now? What's the ruling???
Certain moderators behave differently than others, no mod is abusing their power per say imo, however I must admit some of their choices are questionable in terms of right or wrong.
Ferret
01-07-2010, 05:22 AM
Doesn't sound like he's the one with the vendetta. "Hope this is an appropriate place to post that."
TomBRowkaH
01-07-2010, 05:25 AM
Hahaha you got banned for posting on THAT thread? I mean come on, that has to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life.
If anyone should be banned I think it should be the people who make 10 threads in one day talking about making altitude 3D and adding KAMIKAZE LOOPIES!
If anyone should be banned I think it should be the people who make 10 threads in one day talking about making altitude 3D and adding KAMIKAZE LOOPIES!
Massi
01-07-2010, 05:25 AM
A brief glance at the forum rules should show you why the mods took action. The real issue is that you violated the rules and made a thread to complain about it.
Garbage like this is the main reason I don't follow these forums anymore.
You are shocking.
I agree that something needs to be done about this. Beagle so far has my favorite ideas just about give infractions to help the community not just to ban people and say "Oh you broke rule Section J Para. 2 now you get an infraction"
Stop randomly banning people for 1 bad/not so bad post because you have power and you wan to use it.
Garbage like this is the main reason I don't follow these forums anymore.
You are shocking.
I agree that something needs to be done about this. Beagle so far has my favorite ideas just about give infractions to help the community not just to ban people and say "Oh you broke rule Section J Para. 2 now you get an infraction"
Stop randomly banning people for 1 bad/not so bad post because you have power and you wan to use it.
Kuja900
01-07-2010, 05:27 AM
Hahaha you got banned for posting on THAT thread? I mean come on, that has to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life.
If anyone should be banned I think it should be the people who make 10 threads in one day talking about making altitude 3D and adding KAMIKAZE LOOPIES!
He did not get banned for posting any thread. He received numerous infractions and sent offensive pms to moderators. He also harassed me in game but thats irrelevant. He established a pattern of behavior consistent with a troll with no interests except causing grief for the community.
If anyone should be banned I think it should be the people who make 10 threads in one day talking about making altitude 3D and adding KAMIKAZE LOOPIES!
He did not get banned for posting any thread. He received numerous infractions and sent offensive pms to moderators. He also harassed me in game but thats irrelevant. He established a pattern of behavior consistent with a troll with no interests except causing grief for the community.
[Y]
01-07-2010, 05:27 AM
People with power tend to want to use it.
tgleaf
01-07-2010, 05:30 AM
Certain moderators behave differently than others, no mod is abusing their power per say imo, however I must admit some of their choices are questionable in terms of right or wrong.
Fair enough... I don't really know, I just see _some_ mods doing exactly what they ban others for. Hypocrisy isn't a pretty thing. (And that's not necessarily directed at you.)
Fair enough... I don't really know, I just see _some_ mods doing exactly what they ban others for. Hypocrisy isn't a pretty thing. (And that's not necessarily directed at you.)
Kuja900
01-07-2010, 05:30 AM
Fair enough... I don't really know, I just see _some_ mods doing exactly what they ban others for. Hypocrisy isn't a pretty thing. (And that's not necessarily directed at you.)
If you would please cite an example.
If you would please cite an example.
Ferret
01-07-2010, 05:31 AM
He did not get banned for posting any thread. He received numerous infractions and sent offensive pms to moderators. He also harassed me in game but thats irrelevant. He established a pattern of behavior consistent with a troll with no interests except causing grief for the community.
Requesting Kuja be banned from the forums. After I muted him in game, he constantly has people ask me to unmute him or ask why he is muted. He has also private messaged me on the forum regarding this even though I clearly do my best to avoid this pattern of harassment that causes no good for the community.
Requesting Kuja be banned from the forums. After I muted him in game, he constantly has people ask me to unmute him or ask why he is muted. He has also private messaged me on the forum regarding this even though I clearly do my best to avoid this pattern of harassment that causes no good for the community.
Kuja900
01-07-2010, 05:32 AM
Requesting Kuja be banned from the forums. After I muted him in game, he constantly has people ask me to unmute him or ask why he is muted. He has also private messaged me on the forum regarding this even though I clearly do my best to avoid this pattern of harassment that causes no good for the community.
Cant hide my love for you Ferret.
Cant hide my love for you Ferret.
Vi*
01-07-2010, 06:03 AM
Obviously sunshineduck is determined and can keep posting his message, and some of it is relevant, and other members of the forums are beginning to wonder what's up, so I am going to save both him the trouble of posting and Kuja the trouble of repeatedly deleting by posting a moderated version of sunshineduck's complaint. I am going to ask that sunshineduck refrain from posting his message again, as long as this remains up.
My thoughts on this matter:
[facepalm picture edited out]
I\'d like to point out that Kuja was totally justified in IP banning me. I\'ll take the responsibility for that, and I honestly couldn\'t care less if you kept banning my multis in a vain effort to stop me from posting. What I did after Kuja tempbanned me was probably out of line, but I felt that it needed to be said, so I said it. Problem is, my clan is currently being held hostage by Kuja apparently because they\'re disruptive trolls, even though none of them post on this board other than me. ... Here\'s the sequence of events...
1. Kuja gives a couple of r87 clan members infractions ...
3. Kuja creates a thread and posts pics of herself...
6. r87 trolls Kuja...
10. Kuja [threatens to use mod powers]
11. r87 laughs
12. Kuja bans sunshineduck (me) and VietCampo for a month each and locks the r87 clan thread
14. I create a multi (sunshinedick) and send in a message to the admins [about] why she shouldn\'t be a mod
15. I [troll]
16. Kuja bans the multi until \"Never\"
17-19 [makes alternate accounts, Kuja bans, repeat]
20. She IP bans Viet...
21. This thread
Somewhere during this process, she decided to hold our clan hostage (not allowing us to have a clan thread) and ban three of us from official pro tournament servers. There are several things wrong with this. ...
Now, my actions after my ... 30-day ban were probably enough to warrant my IP banning, but how can Kuja possibly justify banning my clan from existing and IP banning Viet just because I made fun of her for posting pics on an internet forum when she said herself that she had expected the worst? Is that seriously a legitimate reason to put someone on a 30-day vacation? ...
With love,
sunshineduck
My thoughts on this matter:
[facepalm picture edited out]
I\'d like to point out that Kuja was totally justified in IP banning me. I\'ll take the responsibility for that, and I honestly couldn\'t care less if you kept banning my multis in a vain effort to stop me from posting. What I did after Kuja tempbanned me was probably out of line, but I felt that it needed to be said, so I said it. Problem is, my clan is currently being held hostage by Kuja apparently because they\'re disruptive trolls, even though none of them post on this board other than me. ... Here\'s the sequence of events...
1. Kuja gives a couple of r87 clan members infractions ...
3. Kuja creates a thread and posts pics of herself...
6. r87 trolls Kuja...
10. Kuja [threatens to use mod powers]
11. r87 laughs
12. Kuja bans sunshineduck (me) and VietCampo for a month each and locks the r87 clan thread
14. I create a multi (sunshinedick) and send in a message to the admins [about] why she shouldn\'t be a mod
15. I [troll]
16. Kuja bans the multi until \"Never\"
17-19 [makes alternate accounts, Kuja bans, repeat]
20. She IP bans Viet...
21. This thread
Somewhere during this process, she decided to hold our clan hostage (not allowing us to have a clan thread) and ban three of us from official pro tournament servers. There are several things wrong with this. ...
Now, my actions after my ... 30-day ban were probably enough to warrant my IP banning, but how can Kuja possibly justify banning my clan from existing and IP banning Viet just because I made fun of her for posting pics on an internet forum when she said herself that she had expected the worst? Is that seriously a legitimate reason to put someone on a 30-day vacation? ...
With love,
sunshineduck
-MH-CaptainVogez
01-07-2010, 06:11 AM
Okay I'm going out for a lengthy bike ride so I'm going to keep this brief:
1) We all agree that there seems to be some inconsistency in the moderation. THE MODS ARE ONLY HUMAN - they're not some bot program that is going to automatically peruse the threads in a linear pattern, searching for terms, links, images and automatically decide their relevance and/or punishment if necessary.
The mods are the ones who clean up this community and just because they don't all read exactly the same content in the same context, you should all understand it would be a lot worse if they weren't here to keep this in line - at least they've had the balls to stand up and explain any actions they've had - I haven't seen any "haters" show any understanding after thogh.
2) Beagle - I do feel for you. I got a WARNING for putting a photo that said "show us your t***" in the kuja thread as a joke - I hardly see how I got a warning and you got a ban (besides for the grace of Karl who was kind enough to see I meant it in a joke - though did remind me of the seriousness of it).
3) I doubt this is possible in phpBB, but I think there needs to be a review system where a mod MARKS a post/user for an infraction and needs the approval of at least 2 more moderators. If this had to be through link in PM then so be it, but this would make it a bit more even in case someone is a bit overjudging.
4) I'm glad to be a part of this community, but I think that everyone needs to take a good, hard look at themselves AND the rules on which these threads are based to fully understand why they are being treated the way they are depending on their activity.
Now, I shall depart and be back to look at the posts that get all angry at what I've said in an hour (and have a good chuckle about them to myself)
1) We all agree that there seems to be some inconsistency in the moderation. THE MODS ARE ONLY HUMAN - they're not some bot program that is going to automatically peruse the threads in a linear pattern, searching for terms, links, images and automatically decide their relevance and/or punishment if necessary.
The mods are the ones who clean up this community and just because they don't all read exactly the same content in the same context, you should all understand it would be a lot worse if they weren't here to keep this in line - at least they've had the balls to stand up and explain any actions they've had - I haven't seen any "haters" show any understanding after thogh.
2) Beagle - I do feel for you. I got a WARNING for putting a photo that said "show us your t***" in the kuja thread as a joke - I hardly see how I got a warning and you got a ban (besides for the grace of Karl who was kind enough to see I meant it in a joke - though did remind me of the seriousness of it).
3) I doubt this is possible in phpBB, but I think there needs to be a review system where a mod MARKS a post/user for an infraction and needs the approval of at least 2 more moderators. If this had to be through link in PM then so be it, but this would make it a bit more even in case someone is a bit overjudging.
4) I'm glad to be a part of this community, but I think that everyone needs to take a good, hard look at themselves AND the rules on which these threads are based to fully understand why they are being treated the way they are depending on their activity.
Now, I shall depart and be back to look at the posts that get all angry at what I've said in an hour (and have a good chuckle about them to myself)
Ajuk999
01-07-2010, 06:11 AM
Well, I was infracted by nesnl for saying this:
http://altitudegame.com/forums/showpost.php?p=30159&postcount=4 ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ????
I don't get it?
Does anyone see how this breaks any of the rules?
I sure don't.
I have broken rules before, but I am repented, I don't get this.
And as Beagle said, there was no reason just:
Dear Ajuk999,
You have received an infraction at Altitude Game: Forums.
Reason: Violation of Terms and Rules
-------
-------
This infraction is worth 1 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire.
Original Post:
30159
With Apple, I have never worried about this stuff :)
All the best,
Altitude Game: Forums
So someone please tell me about this.
I think also the best moderators are:
1. PIEFACE
2. KUJA900
PS: Pieface has beens so HELPFUL! :) :) :D
http://altitudegame.com/forums/showpost.php?p=30159&postcount=4 ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ????
I don't get it?
Does anyone see how this breaks any of the rules?
I sure don't.
I have broken rules before, but I am repented, I don't get this.
And as Beagle said, there was no reason just:
Dear Ajuk999,
You have received an infraction at Altitude Game: Forums.
Reason: Violation of Terms and Rules
-------
-------
This infraction is worth 1 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire.
Original Post:
30159
With Apple, I have never worried about this stuff :)
All the best,
Altitude Game: Forums
So someone please tell me about this.
I think also the best moderators are:
1. PIEFACE
2. KUJA900
PS: Pieface has beens so HELPFUL! :) :) :D
Kuja900
01-07-2010, 06:11 AM
Fair enough, Sunshineduck long before his harassing me in game sent offensive pms complaining about his infractions calling all moderators on this forum "****ing nazis". I reviewed his posting history and realized he had contributed nothing of value and most of his posts were at the expense of someone else. At first he was only temporarily banned, however he proceeded to make additional accounts and continued posting and as such was given an ip ban by lamster. I did not hold your clan hostage at all, half the members were banned including the OP so I closed that thread. A member of your clan besides one that is currently temp/perma banned is welcomed to remake it. I am from Team Liquid and I emulate moderators from that site as they are highly successful at keeping a community far larger then this one relatively troll free. Vietcampo's posting history was just as poor and he received a temp ban as well, in a month I welcome him back with hopefully improved posting.
edit: vietcampo also replied in a manner similar to sushineduck about his infractions in his pms to me.
edit: vietcampo also replied in a manner similar to sushineduck about his infractions in his pms to me.
Kuja900
01-07-2010, 06:14 AM
1) We all agree that there seems to be some inconsistency in the moderation.
I just want to address this. Some moderators carry out their business differently then others, leading to this inconsistency you speak of. To help account for these differences lamster recently created a private sub forum for us to discuss appeals/other mod matters ect.
I just want to address this. Some moderators carry out their business differently then others, leading to this inconsistency you speak of. To help account for these differences lamster recently created a private sub forum for us to discuss appeals/other mod matters ect.
Beagle
01-07-2010, 06:30 AM
3) I doubt this is possible in phpBB, but I think there needs to be a review system where a mod MARKS a post/user for an infraction and needs the approval of at least 2 more moderators. If this had to be through link in PM then so be it, but this would make it a bit more even in case someone is a bit overjudging.
I like this.
I like this.
-MH-CaptainVogez
01-07-2010, 07:18 AM
1) We all agree that there seems to be some inconsistency in the moderation.
I just want to address this. Some moderators carry out their business differently then others, leading to this inconsistency you speak of. To help account for these differences lamster recently created a private sub forum for us to discuss appeals/other mod matters ect.
That's a good idea - definately not taking a hack at any mods personally, but it might make things more even when there is consensus on a discussion.
Cheers for the info Kuja.
Curious - do the private forums reference individual cases (before infractions/bans) or focus more on appeals...?
I just want to address this. Some moderators carry out their business differently then others, leading to this inconsistency you speak of. To help account for these differences lamster recently created a private sub forum for us to discuss appeals/other mod matters ect.
That's a good idea - definately not taking a hack at any mods personally, but it might make things more even when there is consensus on a discussion.
Cheers for the info Kuja.
Curious - do the private forums reference individual cases (before infractions/bans) or focus more on appeals...?
Stormich
01-07-2010, 07:45 AM
I agree with what most people said. The new posters are mostly horrible putting up random topics. I think there should be a minimum post count for making threads in every subforum except water cooler and help section. It would force people to use/read/reply to the forum without spamming new topics. There's at least 10 topics about missiles. New topics with perks that are in no way useful. All this deteriorates the quality of the forum. The forums are not for having fun, they are for discussing the game. This isn't some offsite fan forum. I do think that having some fun in the forums is ok and benign but keep most of it in the Water Cooler/Your clan thread.
TomBRowkaH
01-07-2010, 08:03 AM
He did not get banned for posting any thread. He received numerous infractions and sent offensive pms to moderators. He also harassed me in game but thats irrelevant. He established a pattern of behavior consistent with a troll with no interests except causing grief for the community.
Wait, Beagle harassed you in the game? I think we're talking about different people.
Wait, Beagle harassed you in the game? I think we're talking about different people.
Kuja900
01-07-2010, 08:04 AM
Wait, Beagle harassed you in the game? I think we're talking about different people.
Not Beagle, I am referring to Sunshineduck. Beagle is the man and I love him.
Not Beagle, I am referring to Sunshineduck. Beagle is the man and I love him.
Evan20000
01-07-2010, 08:25 AM
I haven't seen too much power abuse outside of the beagle hate, but I got this a while ago.
Dear Evan20000,
You have received a warning at Altitude Game: Forums.
Reason:
-------
Violation of Terms and Rules
Please do not back seat moderate we are neither blind nor retarded, thanks.
-------
Original Post:
http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=24271
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omiseelijases View Post
Im tired of waiting for FourFourTwos full-on England review to get into my bookstore...is there a good online preview of the CCC anywhere?
More spambot. -.-
Warnings serve as a reminder to you of the forum's rules, which you are expected to understand and follow.
All the best,
Altitude Game: Forums
I wasn't telling the mods to do anything (So, not minimodding according to the definition on the rules page), and the thread was already **** on, so it's not like I was derailing it.
Annnyway, I'm hoping the mods will settle and get bored of swinging the banhammer indiscriminately. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Dear Evan20000,
You have received a warning at Altitude Game: Forums.
Reason:
-------
Violation of Terms and Rules
Please do not back seat moderate we are neither blind nor retarded, thanks.
-------
Original Post:
http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=24271
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omiseelijases View Post
Im tired of waiting for FourFourTwos full-on England review to get into my bookstore...is there a good online preview of the CCC anywhere?
More spambot. -.-
Warnings serve as a reminder to you of the forum's rules, which you are expected to understand and follow.
All the best,
Altitude Game: Forums
I wasn't telling the mods to do anything (So, not minimodding according to the definition on the rules page), and the thread was already **** on, so it's not like I was derailing it.
Annnyway, I'm hoping the mods will settle and get bored of swinging the banhammer indiscriminately. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
TRUEPAiN
01-07-2010, 10:20 AM
I briefed through the thread, and here's what I have to say...
First of all, it seems like Kuja's reputation has been hurt, and that's unfortunate because a mod should have a fairly good standing among everyone in the community.
the {r87} thread, the community was having fun, and it was controlled. If you look towards the end of the thread, things had settled and they were actually discussing recent matches. They came back to the relevance of their own thread, everything was fine, yet you closed the topic.
I don't get it...
As a moderator, you should be fair, friendly, and considerate to all members of the forum. Avoid playing favorites, and taking sides.
When to ban a member
• Repeated violation of the stated board rules or forum rules
• Offensive behavior (posting offensive material, harassing other members)
• Attempts at hacking or destroying the forum
• Repeated attempts to circumvent moderation or banning
The level of discipline should correspond to the seriousness of the offense.
When to close a topic
• Discussion is heading off-topic, but does not merit deletion
• The initial message and replies contain valuable information, but further discussion is not desired
• The thread is becoming too lengthy
Forgive me if I missed something, but..
Make it less about you, and more about the community. Have some humor. Encourage debate, and maintain civility.
<3 truepa!N
First of all, it seems like Kuja's reputation has been hurt, and that's unfortunate because a mod should have a fairly good standing among everyone in the community.
the {r87} thread, the community was having fun, and it was controlled. If you look towards the end of the thread, things had settled and they were actually discussing recent matches. They came back to the relevance of their own thread, everything was fine, yet you closed the topic.
I don't get it...
As a moderator, you should be fair, friendly, and considerate to all members of the forum. Avoid playing favorites, and taking sides.
When to ban a member
• Repeated violation of the stated board rules or forum rules
• Offensive behavior (posting offensive material, harassing other members)
• Attempts at hacking or destroying the forum
• Repeated attempts to circumvent moderation or banning
The level of discipline should correspond to the seriousness of the offense.
When to close a topic
• Discussion is heading off-topic, but does not merit deletion
• The initial message and replies contain valuable information, but further discussion is not desired
• The thread is becoming too lengthy
Forgive me if I missed something, but..
Make it less about you, and more about the community. Have some humor. Encourage debate, and maintain civility.
<3 truepa!N
Beagle
01-07-2010, 12:01 PM
First of all, it seems like Kuja's reputation has been hurt, and that's unfortunate because a mod should have a fairly good standing among everyone in the community.
What? No, Kuja is great. I've never had issues with the Kuj.
This thread definitely isn't about Kuja.
What? No, Kuja is great. I've never had issues with the Kuj.
This thread definitely isn't about Kuja.
tyr
01-07-2010, 12:11 PM
I am from Team Liquid and I emulate moderators from that site as they are highly successful at keeping a community far larger then this one relatively troll free.
I think this is why it's not working as well as on TL.
Simply because this community is not as big as TL. They can (temp)ban people, even quality posters who made some mistakes, and no one will really notice because there are a lot more quality posters. But here, you ban someone like Beagle, almost everyone sees it immediately, because there's a lot less of us here, and the overall quality of the forum is then becoming worse.
While I approve the TL way on TL, I'm not sure it's the right thing to do here.
I think this is why it's not working as well as on TL.
Simply because this community is not as big as TL. They can (temp)ban people, even quality posters who made some mistakes, and no one will really notice because there are a lot more quality posters. But here, you ban someone like Beagle, almost everyone sees it immediately, because there's a lot less of us here, and the overall quality of the forum is then becoming worse.
While I approve the TL way on TL, I'm not sure it's the right thing to do here.
-MH-CaptainVogez
01-07-2010, 12:39 PM
How big is TL by the way? Because I really haven't been involved in any of these communities until I came to Altitude...
Kuja900
01-07-2010, 12:44 PM
I think this is why it's not working as well as on TL.
Simply because this community is not as big as TL. They can (temp)ban people, even quality posters who made some mistakes, and no one will really notice because there are a lot more quality posters. But here, you ban someone like Beagle, almost everyone sees it immediately, because there's a lot less of us here, and the overall quality of the forum is then becoming worse.
While I approve the TL way on TL, I'm not sure it's the right thing to do here.
Well of course I make a few adjustments based on the size of the community. The Beagle ban I was strongly opposed to.
Simply because this community is not as big as TL. They can (temp)ban people, even quality posters who made some mistakes, and no one will really notice because there are a lot more quality posters. But here, you ban someone like Beagle, almost everyone sees it immediately, because there's a lot less of us here, and the overall quality of the forum is then becoming worse.
While I approve the TL way on TL, I'm not sure it's the right thing to do here.
Well of course I make a few adjustments based on the size of the community. The Beagle ban I was strongly opposed to.
[Y]
01-07-2010, 12:50 PM
Just curious...Who banned Beagle in the first place? If they would like to be mature enough to claim responsibility, I'd sure like to hear his/her explanation of why he/she banned Beagle (or gave him his 5th infraction) for that harmless picture.
Niko0olas
01-07-2010, 01:16 PM
Does any of the mods been a mod in a vBulletin forum before?
Just curious to know that...
If i tell somethin like "dont make me ban you" in the forums i am moderator..
i would be kicked from mod 1-10 minutes after my post...
You guys need to stop spam and flames.
Not ban for nothing....
=S
THIS FORUM NEEDS A BIG CHANGE...
SO IM EXPECTING TO SEE AT LEAST A NEW LAYOUT...
Just curious to know that...
If i tell somethin like "dont make me ban you" in the forums i am moderator..
i would be kicked from mod 1-10 minutes after my post...
You guys need to stop spam and flames.
Not ban for nothing....
=S
THIS FORUM NEEDS A BIG CHANGE...
SO IM EXPECTING TO SEE AT LEAST A NEW LAYOUT...
[Y]
01-07-2010, 01:21 PM
A new layout? I don't understand what you mean. This thread is about the behavior of the mods, not the "look" of the forums.
nesnl
01-07-2010, 03:33 PM
Okay, so here is an explanation that will hopefully clear up some of the issues that people have regarding the moderation on these forums.
First, understand that these forums are not yours (nor are they mine). They are owned by Nimbly Games and they are run on Nimbly Games servers. This means that whatever rules of conduct that they want for these forums are the final word. This means that just because you think it's "the internet" that that somehow makes it okay for you to do or say whatever you want. This is why there are Forum Rules and Guidelines (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2179#post2179). If you don't agree with the rules outlined in these guidelines then I suggest you don't post on these forums. That being said, anyone here is welcome to start an independent forum on a website that they host for discussion on Altitude or anything else you want to discuss.
In regards to specifics of forum moderation it is important to look at how the forums are set up. First, the forums are split into two major sections and can be seen on the main page by the obvious segregation of the 5 sub-forums at the top (Forum Rules, Suggestions, etc) and the 5 sub-forums on the bottom (General Altitude Discussion, League Organization, etc). This division is done both with a purpose and as a courtesy for the community. The important aspect to the forums to realize is that both Lamster and Karl read the forums. This means that they split their time between working on this game and sifting through these forums for things that are important such as worthwhile suggestions and helping people with tech support. So as a result of that the forums that are on the top (Tech Support, Suggestions, etc) are more strict and should be more strict because posts that add no value in those forums are only wasting Lamster's and Karl's time. In response to Ajuk999 (who I should add is Olbermann on his 7th account used to dodge his ban), the post he made was in the Tech Support sub-forum and was clearly a troll response that added absolutely no value or help to the person's problem. How would you feel if you were a person who bought the game and it wasn't working on your computer so you came to these forums and posted a serious tech support question to only have some troll post "lulz pc are stupid and apples rulez."
So as a general rule the moderation in the top forums is going to be stricter than the bottom forums and this is as a service to Lamster, Karl, and for the betterment of the game. Personally, I let most things go in the bottom forums. However, comments that are racist, derogatory, contain inappropriate language, etc are things that are explicitly restricted in the forum guidelines and are posts that I have and will infract. However, it is important to know that there are many moderators and that everyone handles things a bit differently.
I think that a lot of people are too quick to accuse the moderators of doing a bad job and those people never really ask themselves if what they are posting in the first place is appropriate to these forums. Understand that using these forums is a privilege that is given to us by Nimbly Games. All of the sub-forums such as League Organization, Clan Organization, The Water Cooler, etc are given to us as a courtesy and so that Lamster/Karl could separate what is most important to them from the stuff that was just taking up their time. So don't confuse the use of these forums as some inherent right to post whatever you want.
Think before you post.
-Maimer
First, understand that these forums are not yours (nor are they mine). They are owned by Nimbly Games and they are run on Nimbly Games servers. This means that whatever rules of conduct that they want for these forums are the final word. This means that just because you think it's "the internet" that that somehow makes it okay for you to do or say whatever you want. This is why there are Forum Rules and Guidelines (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2179#post2179). If you don't agree with the rules outlined in these guidelines then I suggest you don't post on these forums. That being said, anyone here is welcome to start an independent forum on a website that they host for discussion on Altitude or anything else you want to discuss.
In regards to specifics of forum moderation it is important to look at how the forums are set up. First, the forums are split into two major sections and can be seen on the main page by the obvious segregation of the 5 sub-forums at the top (Forum Rules, Suggestions, etc) and the 5 sub-forums on the bottom (General Altitude Discussion, League Organization, etc). This division is done both with a purpose and as a courtesy for the community. The important aspect to the forums to realize is that both Lamster and Karl read the forums. This means that they split their time between working on this game and sifting through these forums for things that are important such as worthwhile suggestions and helping people with tech support. So as a result of that the forums that are on the top (Tech Support, Suggestions, etc) are more strict and should be more strict because posts that add no value in those forums are only wasting Lamster's and Karl's time. In response to Ajuk999 (who I should add is Olbermann on his 7th account used to dodge his ban), the post he made was in the Tech Support sub-forum and was clearly a troll response that added absolutely no value or help to the person's problem. How would you feel if you were a person who bought the game and it wasn't working on your computer so you came to these forums and posted a serious tech support question to only have some troll post "lulz pc are stupid and apples rulez."
So as a general rule the moderation in the top forums is going to be stricter than the bottom forums and this is as a service to Lamster, Karl, and for the betterment of the game. Personally, I let most things go in the bottom forums. However, comments that are racist, derogatory, contain inappropriate language, etc are things that are explicitly restricted in the forum guidelines and are posts that I have and will infract. However, it is important to know that there are many moderators and that everyone handles things a bit differently.
I think that a lot of people are too quick to accuse the moderators of doing a bad job and those people never really ask themselves if what they are posting in the first place is appropriate to these forums. Understand that using these forums is a privilege that is given to us by Nimbly Games. All of the sub-forums such as League Organization, Clan Organization, The Water Cooler, etc are given to us as a courtesy and so that Lamster/Karl could separate what is most important to them from the stuff that was just taking up their time. So don't confuse the use of these forums as some inherent right to post whatever you want.
Think before you post.
-Maimer
CCN
01-07-2010, 04:53 PM
I think you missed the point a bit maimer, the problem is uneven application of the rules. Tbh the only question on your examples is how few warnings ajuk has recieved.
For example:
Evans warning on backseat moderation
Definition as given by the forums
" III. No Backseat Moderating:
Let the Forum Moderators do the moderating. Backseat Moderating is when people who are not Moderators try to enforce the forum rules."
I fail to see how Evan telling someone what warnings are breaks that, yet he got a warning for it. An explanation here would go a long way.
We all know its XYZ's forum and thus XYZ's rules. Thats never been the problem, the problem, to sum up, is why XYZ's rules when applied by ABC are applied more like AXY7ALPHA
For example:
Evans warning on backseat moderation
Definition as given by the forums
" III. No Backseat Moderating:
Let the Forum Moderators do the moderating. Backseat Moderating is when people who are not Moderators try to enforce the forum rules."
I fail to see how Evan telling someone what warnings are breaks that, yet he got a warning for it. An explanation here would go a long way.
We all know its XYZ's forum and thus XYZ's rules. Thats never been the problem, the problem, to sum up, is why XYZ's rules when applied by ABC are applied more like AXY7ALPHA
Pieface
01-07-2010, 05:54 PM
Assorted Suggestions
Thanks for the feedback, for most of it I completely agree. It's this kind of moderating IMO that makes Maimer the best Mod of this forum, in that he doesn't simply go about awarding infractions for everything. If he sees a thread degenerating into useless spam, it seems that most of the time instead of infracting the spammers he will instead direct the conversation back to the original topic. I believe that this is the real way to go about things. Being a Mod doesn't mean you should be looking for excuses to hand out infractions, but rather that you should be doing your utmost to keep the discussions here rewarding and constructive. This is what I personally have been trying to do as much as possible, and I will also try your PM suggestion to let newer users know exactly how they can make themselves more useful members of the community.
Just to clarify, does anyone have any suggestions for dealing with bans? Even if we had a completely fair infraction system, vBulletin allows you to temp-ban users at any time. If some of us don't know that you've been banned unjustly, there is no way for us to appeal your case in the private Mod forum. This is why I'd like to experiment with some sort of Banned Users forum for people to make their argument and have their case looked over by other Mods and the Admins. The only problems I see with this sort of system are the spam bots and those who have been perma-banned and will not be unbanned. How do you ban an already banned user from a Banned User's forum? Still, I believe there should be some ban appeal system and would love to hear any suggestions on this matter.
Thanks for the feedback, for most of it I completely agree. It's this kind of moderating IMO that makes Maimer the best Mod of this forum, in that he doesn't simply go about awarding infractions for everything. If he sees a thread degenerating into useless spam, it seems that most of the time instead of infracting the spammers he will instead direct the conversation back to the original topic. I believe that this is the real way to go about things. Being a Mod doesn't mean you should be looking for excuses to hand out infractions, but rather that you should be doing your utmost to keep the discussions here rewarding and constructive. This is what I personally have been trying to do as much as possible, and I will also try your PM suggestion to let newer users know exactly how they can make themselves more useful members of the community.
Just to clarify, does anyone have any suggestions for dealing with bans? Even if we had a completely fair infraction system, vBulletin allows you to temp-ban users at any time. If some of us don't know that you've been banned unjustly, there is no way for us to appeal your case in the private Mod forum. This is why I'd like to experiment with some sort of Banned Users forum for people to make their argument and have their case looked over by other Mods and the Admins. The only problems I see with this sort of system are the spam bots and those who have been perma-banned and will not be unbanned. How do you ban an already banned user from a Banned User's forum? Still, I believe there should be some ban appeal system and would love to hear any suggestions on this matter.
nesnl
01-07-2010, 07:45 PM
I think you missed the point a bit maimer, the problem is uneven application of the rules. Tbh the only question on your examples is how few warnings ajuk has recieved.
For example:
Evans warning on backseat moderation
Definition as given by the forums
" III. No Backseat Moderating:
Let the Forum Moderators do the moderating. Backseat Moderating is when people who are not Moderators try to enforce the forum rules."
I fail to see how Evan telling someone what warnings are breaks that, yet he got a warning for it. An explanation here would go a long way.
We all know its XYZ's forum and thus XYZ's rules. Thats never been the problem, the problem, to sum up, is why XYZ's rules when applied by ABC are applied more like AXY7ALPHA
There are many moderators on these forums and each one was selected by Lamster and Karl. I stated in my previous post that each moderator is going to handle things a bit differently (that's human nature) so I don't see how you can't understand how there are going to be situation where rules are applied slightly differently based on which moderator is looking at each different situation.
If you are looking for an explanation for each infraction you aren't going to get it. The part of moderation that you guys don't see is that we each receive an email every time someone reports a post. That means there are days when I get 30 or 40 emails, with each having a link to a post and a reason it is being reported. While most posts might not receive an infraction, it would kind of defeat the purpose of the system if I had to come on here and explain to you why each infraction was given out because you feel like you are entitled to an explanation. That is the whole reason we were appointed as moderators, because Lamster and Karl trusted us to make good decisions, not so that we had to post our actions on the boards for everyone else to decide if they approve of them or not.
Just look at the system and realize that it takes 5 infractions to get a temporary ban. If you saw the list of people who have actually managed to rack up 5 infractions to get that temporary ban then you would realize how ridiculous this has all become as the list is just a few people. If you get an infraction in all likelihood you know what you did wrong and you won't do it again. Anyone who manages to rack up 5 of them probably has a hard time understanding and following the rules.
For example:
Evans warning on backseat moderation
Definition as given by the forums
" III. No Backseat Moderating:
Let the Forum Moderators do the moderating. Backseat Moderating is when people who are not Moderators try to enforce the forum rules."
I fail to see how Evan telling someone what warnings are breaks that, yet he got a warning for it. An explanation here would go a long way.
We all know its XYZ's forum and thus XYZ's rules. Thats never been the problem, the problem, to sum up, is why XYZ's rules when applied by ABC are applied more like AXY7ALPHA
There are many moderators on these forums and each one was selected by Lamster and Karl. I stated in my previous post that each moderator is going to handle things a bit differently (that's human nature) so I don't see how you can't understand how there are going to be situation where rules are applied slightly differently based on which moderator is looking at each different situation.
If you are looking for an explanation for each infraction you aren't going to get it. The part of moderation that you guys don't see is that we each receive an email every time someone reports a post. That means there are days when I get 30 or 40 emails, with each having a link to a post and a reason it is being reported. While most posts might not receive an infraction, it would kind of defeat the purpose of the system if I had to come on here and explain to you why each infraction was given out because you feel like you are entitled to an explanation. That is the whole reason we were appointed as moderators, because Lamster and Karl trusted us to make good decisions, not so that we had to post our actions on the boards for everyone else to decide if they approve of them or not.
Just look at the system and realize that it takes 5 infractions to get a temporary ban. If you saw the list of people who have actually managed to rack up 5 infractions to get that temporary ban then you would realize how ridiculous this has all become as the list is just a few people. If you get an infraction in all likelihood you know what you did wrong and you won't do it again. Anyone who manages to rack up 5 of them probably has a hard time understanding and following the rules.
DiogenesDog
01-07-2010, 07:52 PM
I haven't seen the screen from the banned side, but if you're able to still send PMs, I'd suggest just PMing the mods if you want to appeal an infraction. If that's not an option, AIM me at ksfrison and I'll post your appeal in the moderator appeal forum.
As for specific other issues:
- I didn't see the post that got Beagle banned, but I tend to agree with Ferret's POV: it's really really hard to get banned by racking up infractions. If you manage to keep pissing people off that often, you probably deserve the ban even if the final straw wasn't a grievous offense. I think most posters don't have even a single infraction. It's really not hard to avoid.
- Personally, I'm much more likely to hand out infractions against repeat offenders. Otherwise, I try to stay consistent. I'm pretty lenient, though - I think I've handed out less than 10 infractions total.
- You can't really police stupidity on an official game forum unless you want to piss off 50% of your posters. Look around at other games. No one's managed to do it yet, and I doubt Nimbly will be the first. In any case, it's easy to ignore stupid posts.
- People who are saying that the mods aren't improving the forum quality are missing a lot of information. Believe me, if you could see the stuff that gets deleted/modded... ugh. This place would be a mess.
As for specific other issues:
- I didn't see the post that got Beagle banned, but I tend to agree with Ferret's POV: it's really really hard to get banned by racking up infractions. If you manage to keep pissing people off that often, you probably deserve the ban even if the final straw wasn't a grievous offense. I think most posters don't have even a single infraction. It's really not hard to avoid.
- Personally, I'm much more likely to hand out infractions against repeat offenders. Otherwise, I try to stay consistent. I'm pretty lenient, though - I think I've handed out less than 10 infractions total.
- You can't really police stupidity on an official game forum unless you want to piss off 50% of your posters. Look around at other games. No one's managed to do it yet, and I doubt Nimbly will be the first. In any case, it's easy to ignore stupid posts.
- People who are saying that the mods aren't improving the forum quality are missing a lot of information. Believe me, if you could see the stuff that gets deleted/modded... ugh. This place would be a mess.
Beagle
01-07-2010, 09:41 PM
- I didn't see the post that got Beagle banned, but I tend to agree with Ferret's POV: it's really really hard to get banned by racking up infractions. If you manage to keep pissing people off that often, you probably deserve the ban even if the final straw wasn't a grievous offense. I think most posters don't have even a single infraction. It's really not hard to avoid.
Lets see, recently I've got red cards for:
- Not one, but two red cards for this picture (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=29816#post29816) - The first was reversed so I can only imagine the mod in question really had it in for that post and just gave me another.
- Saying that someone's absurd argument was retarded (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=24270#post24270) (Instant red card apparently)
- Private
Reason: Insulted Other Member(s)
I love when I get Private Red Cards. I look through all my recent posts and can never figure out who I insulted. Why not just link the post you're punishing me for?
-Private
Reason: Violation of Terms and Rules
Oh god, this is even worse. Private violation of terms and rules is basically 'you did something wrong, it could be anything, all you need to know is you're getting a red card'.
- Disagree with a suggestion of a new user? Instant red card (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23175#post23175).
- Someone gravedigs Maimer's EXP thread, I post in big letters (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=22969#post22969). Red Card.
- Big Red Letters (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13840#post13840) net me two in one thread. No-one else was doing anything wrong though, right?
- Randomly snapping at Moxy (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=21497#post21497). One infraction I totally deserve.
- Mocking Kuja for all the closing (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17526#post17526) he loved to do back in the day, but Pie was not amused. Well, he cited the rule right there, so he's got me there I guess.
There's three or four more long expired ones for me doing legitimately stupid stuff like writing in a wierd format to annoy evilarsenal in the old signup thread, or writing NO in giant bold letters when lammyboi made his tenth new clan thread, back when he was the only one making a clan every day.
I have about 3 yellow cards and 4 pages full of red ones.
So, no, I don't agree. If you're me, it really is hard to avoid getting infractions, and those newer ones I got say they won't expire until April/June.
I've actually kind of got this whole mental fear of the inbox here now. Its so often an infraction that I see 'you have new notifications' and half of me doesn't even want to click on it because I'm probably getting more naughty points.
Anyway, thanks for joining me on this trip through my red card history!
Lets see, recently I've got red cards for:
- Not one, but two red cards for this picture (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=29816#post29816) - The first was reversed so I can only imagine the mod in question really had it in for that post and just gave me another.
- Saying that someone's absurd argument was retarded (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=24270#post24270) (Instant red card apparently)
- Private
Reason: Insulted Other Member(s)
I love when I get Private Red Cards. I look through all my recent posts and can never figure out who I insulted. Why not just link the post you're punishing me for?
-Private
Reason: Violation of Terms and Rules
Oh god, this is even worse. Private violation of terms and rules is basically 'you did something wrong, it could be anything, all you need to know is you're getting a red card'.
- Disagree with a suggestion of a new user? Instant red card (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23175#post23175).
- Someone gravedigs Maimer's EXP thread, I post in big letters (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=22969#post22969). Red Card.
- Big Red Letters (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13840#post13840) net me two in one thread. No-one else was doing anything wrong though, right?
- Randomly snapping at Moxy (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=21497#post21497). One infraction I totally deserve.
- Mocking Kuja for all the closing (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17526#post17526) he loved to do back in the day, but Pie was not amused. Well, he cited the rule right there, so he's got me there I guess.
There's three or four more long expired ones for me doing legitimately stupid stuff like writing in a wierd format to annoy evilarsenal in the old signup thread, or writing NO in giant bold letters when lammyboi made his tenth new clan thread, back when he was the only one making a clan every day.
I have about 3 yellow cards and 4 pages full of red ones.
So, no, I don't agree. If you're me, it really is hard to avoid getting infractions, and those newer ones I got say they won't expire until April/June.
I've actually kind of got this whole mental fear of the inbox here now. Its so often an infraction that I see 'you have new notifications' and half of me doesn't even want to click on it because I'm probably getting more naughty points.
Anyway, thanks for joining me on this trip through my red card history!
Pieface
01-07-2010, 09:57 PM
Just an aside, looking through your infractions: The ones that now appear as "Private" are most likely infractions from posts that then got deleted. The PM you got concerning the original infraction should quote the post you got it for. While Mods can give "private" infractions for no specified reason, none of the ones you've gotten have actually been "private" as I can see the posts that they are linked to (some have been deleted though). I've actually never seen a member get a truly "private" infraction, because as you've said they are vague and do not tell the user what they did wrong.
I've never gotten banned before, but do you happen to know if you are able to PM people when you are banned? If so, banned members should PM a Mod in order to get their ban appealed. If not, feel free to send me an email at this address (skalicki@hotmail.com) and I'll look into the situation. In the future, I'd love to see a better way to formally appeal bans, but I'm still trying to come up with a good suggestion to send to the devs about how to implement such a system.
I've never gotten banned before, but do you happen to know if you are able to PM people when you are banned? If so, banned members should PM a Mod in order to get their ban appealed. If not, feel free to send me an email at this address (skalicki@hotmail.com) and I'll look into the situation. In the future, I'd love to see a better way to formally appeal bans, but I'm still trying to come up with a good suggestion to send to the devs about how to implement such a system.
eth
01-07-2010, 09:58 PM
Man Id kill to read your inbox! There should also be some kinda leniency for creative flames - the moxy one was pretty hilarious and shoulda been awarded with a greencard(GET IT? GET IT??) imo.
Ajuk999
01-07-2010, 10:01 PM
How would you feel if you were a person who bought the game and it wasn't working on your computer so you came to these forums and posted a serious tech support question to only have some troll post "lulz pc are stupid and apples rulez."
Maimer I never said that. I did say something that, I agree was a "troll response" in that, it had no help or insight to the question. But I shall tell you one thing, I was mad at the time for you infracting me for a month, but I shall never make a stupid response again like that. So I don't want you to see me as a "hack, spammer, etc" so what you did, helped me. I won't complain about that. Sometime is is hard to understand but I know you guys are "humans" also.
Unfortunately, I am not. :)
jk
Maimer I never said that. I did say something that, I agree was a "troll response" in that, it had no help or insight to the question. But I shall tell you one thing, I was mad at the time for you infracting me for a month, but I shall never make a stupid response again like that. So I don't want you to see me as a "hack, spammer, etc" so what you did, helped me. I won't complain about that. Sometime is is hard to understand but I know you guys are "humans" also.
Unfortunately, I am not. :)
jk
hurripilot
01-07-2010, 10:28 PM
Well, assuming that the world isn't actually populated by a race a sentient machines and this is all just a dream made by the machines to keep me subdued, I think we can all agree that we are all humans here. We have our bad days, good days, meh days, etc.
As a member, I have made some stupid mistakes on my bad days. I'm more than willing to admit that my post in the Bomber thread was not the most graceful way to express my opinion on the matter. I wasn't feeling quite up to spec that day, and I made the mistake of posting immediately whatever it was I wanted to say. Truth be told, I probably should have stayed away from the forums altogether that day.
As members, we have that option. If you've got a case of the rage and you think your posting might be dangerous, you can always not post and just leave things for another time. If you come back after you've cooled off and your topic is lost in the thread, you can always quote previous posts to get the discussion back on track.
The mods, however, don't really have that option. Rain or shine, overjoyed at life, or pissed beyond all belief at humanity, mods have to be there to rectify threads, images, posts, and even members who are harmful to the community. If a mod says "I don't want to deal with this, I'm just gonna let it go", the forums go to hell-and-a-hand-basket. This means that if a mod is having a bad day, that mod has to call upon his/her powers of self-control to avoid wrongful reprimands. Sometimes, the self-control just isn't there. Obviously, whoever it was that banned Beagle for his post in the Bomber thread has had issues with him and was not in the best of moods. They fudged up.
tl;dr version - We're all people here, we all make mistakes. If the system is going to improve, it's got to be both the members and moderators improving themselves first.
EDIT - I didn't receive any infractions for my bomber thread post, I was just using it as an example of how a usually harmless member can fudge up.
As a member, I have made some stupid mistakes on my bad days. I'm more than willing to admit that my post in the Bomber thread was not the most graceful way to express my opinion on the matter. I wasn't feeling quite up to spec that day, and I made the mistake of posting immediately whatever it was I wanted to say. Truth be told, I probably should have stayed away from the forums altogether that day.
As members, we have that option. If you've got a case of the rage and you think your posting might be dangerous, you can always not post and just leave things for another time. If you come back after you've cooled off and your topic is lost in the thread, you can always quote previous posts to get the discussion back on track.
The mods, however, don't really have that option. Rain or shine, overjoyed at life, or pissed beyond all belief at humanity, mods have to be there to rectify threads, images, posts, and even members who are harmful to the community. If a mod says "I don't want to deal with this, I'm just gonna let it go", the forums go to hell-and-a-hand-basket. This means that if a mod is having a bad day, that mod has to call upon his/her powers of self-control to avoid wrongful reprimands. Sometimes, the self-control just isn't there. Obviously, whoever it was that banned Beagle for his post in the Bomber thread has had issues with him and was not in the best of moods. They fudged up.
tl;dr version - We're all people here, we all make mistakes. If the system is going to improve, it's got to be both the members and moderators improving themselves first.
EDIT - I didn't receive any infractions for my bomber thread post, I was just using it as an example of how a usually harmless member can fudge up.
Beagle
01-07-2010, 11:02 PM
Just to clarify for the couple of people who have asked, being banned looks like this:
You try to go to the forums, but all that comes up is the vBulletin style with a message saying "You have been banned for x amount, check back on date when your ban will expire"
Although it tends to troll me by first saying I'm banned for a week, then when I come back it'll say I'm banned for a month. I think it has issues with multiple bans or something.
Anyway, yeah, you can't do anything. The closest I get to appeals are going on Alty and hoping Kuja is on so I can beg.
You try to go to the forums, but all that comes up is the vBulletin style with a message saying "You have been banned for x amount, check back on date when your ban will expire"
Although it tends to troll me by first saying I'm banned for a week, then when I come back it'll say I'm banned for a month. I think it has issues with multiple bans or something.
Anyway, yeah, you can't do anything. The closest I get to appeals are going on Alty and hoping Kuja is on so I can beg.
Triped
01-07-2010, 11:17 PM
It seems like some of the mods are too young. I'm sure Dio, Maimer and Vi are responsible. Everybody else...not so sure.
wolf'j'max
01-07-2010, 11:24 PM
Tyr is too......i'm sure and for me a ban looks like this: "you have been banned for the following reasons: <insert reason> this ban will be lifted at <insert datum and time> then when you come back you will get another ban for a month or so with the reason "infractions". The only link to contact nimbly games is "contact us" and nothing else.
Kuja900
01-07-2010, 11:26 PM
Tyr is too......i'm sure and for me a ban looks like this: "you have been banned for the following reasons: <insert reason> this ban will be lifted at <insert datum and time> then when you come back you will get another ban for a month or so with the reason "infractions". The only link to contact nimbly games is "contact us" and nothing else.
Tyr isnt a mod, and moderator maturity is not an issue on this forum.
Tyr isnt a mod, and moderator maturity is not an issue on this forum.
wolf'j'max
01-07-2010, 11:32 PM
............wait what? I always tought tyr was a mod... Ok sorry but pieface is also trustable any moderator is by the way.
[Y]
01-07-2010, 11:32 PM
Tyr isnt a mod, and moderator maturity is not an issue on this forum.
But it's an issue in this thread. A more mature mod is less likely to get all worked up over something such as a picture or a joke and start handing out infractions just because they can.
But it's an issue in this thread. A more mature mod is less likely to get all worked up over something such as a picture or a joke and start handing out infractions just because they can.
Kuja900
01-07-2010, 11:33 PM
............wait what? I always tought tyr was a mod... Ok sorry but pieface is also trustable any moderator is by the way.
You dont think I am?
You dont think I am?
wolf'j'max
01-07-2010, 11:35 PM
Yes you are and i said ANY after looking at the people i know as mod. You whale.
hurripilot
01-08-2010, 12:59 AM
Is there a way to get a list of who all are mods on the forums, as well as a job-description for mods and a list of their capabilities? I don't know about everyone else, but I'm a bit confused as to who you mods are, what EXACTLY is expected of you, and what EXACTLY your powers are. I think a little bit more understanding of what the mods are all about might help the discussion from the member's side.
CCN
01-08-2010, 01:02 AM
There are many moderators on these forums and each one was selected by Lamster and Karl. I stated in my previous post that each moderator is going to handle things a bit differently (that's human nature) so I don't see how you can't understand how there are going to be situation where rules are applied slightly differently based on which moderator is looking at each different situation.
If you are looking for an explanation for each infraction you aren't going to get it. The part of moderation that you guys don't see is that we each receive an email every time someone reports a post. That means there are days when I get 30 or 40 emails, with each having a link to a post and a reason it is being reported. While most posts might not receive an infraction, it would kind of defeat the purpose of the system if I had to come on here and explain to you why each infraction was given out because you feel like you are entitled to an explanation. That is the whole reason we were appointed as moderators, because Lamster and Karl trusted us to make good decisions, not so that we had to post our actions on the boards for everyone else to decide if they approve of them or not.
Just look at the system and realize that it takes 5 infractions to get a temporary ban. If you saw the list of people who have actually managed to rack up 5 infractions to get that temporary ban then you would realize how ridiculous this has all become as the list is just a few people. If you get an infraction in all likelihood you know what you did wrong and you won't do it again. Anyone who manages to rack up 5 of them probably has a hard time understanding and following the rules.
The crux.
Its not been slightly differently, there have been some quite big fluctuations.
Also I agree it is unfair to ask for an explanation for each infraction, nor would I or have I asked for that. A banning (temp or otherwise) is not a tiny infraction and if the person affected feels it's been unfair I do not believe it is asking much for a simple summary (thats not 30-40 a day). Many other forums i've been too (e.g. 2+2) have a ban appeals and a talk to a mod section.
TL:DR
1) Small Fluctuations =/= Large Fluctuations
2) Big Infractions =/= Every Infraction =/= Unjust Infractions
3) Thus if you have a good contributing member who feels that they have been subject to a large fluctuation temporary banning I can't see how it is good for the forum if Nazi Germany rules apply over that.
4) This forum is not thriving, a forum thrives on its member base as much as the moderation. I wouldn't want closed book moderation (on everything) driving away potential contributors who feel slighted. The fact Beagle still posts here shows what kinda addiction he has for the game, he's been temp banned so many times, and not really getting why, he actually made a last stand thread. I don't think anyone will argue that temp bans are reforming when the person doesn't get wtf the temp ban was for.
If you are looking for an explanation for each infraction you aren't going to get it. The part of moderation that you guys don't see is that we each receive an email every time someone reports a post. That means there are days when I get 30 or 40 emails, with each having a link to a post and a reason it is being reported. While most posts might not receive an infraction, it would kind of defeat the purpose of the system if I had to come on here and explain to you why each infraction was given out because you feel like you are entitled to an explanation. That is the whole reason we were appointed as moderators, because Lamster and Karl trusted us to make good decisions, not so that we had to post our actions on the boards for everyone else to decide if they approve of them or not.
Just look at the system and realize that it takes 5 infractions to get a temporary ban. If you saw the list of people who have actually managed to rack up 5 infractions to get that temporary ban then you would realize how ridiculous this has all become as the list is just a few people. If you get an infraction in all likelihood you know what you did wrong and you won't do it again. Anyone who manages to rack up 5 of them probably has a hard time understanding and following the rules.
The crux.
Its not been slightly differently, there have been some quite big fluctuations.
Also I agree it is unfair to ask for an explanation for each infraction, nor would I or have I asked for that. A banning (temp or otherwise) is not a tiny infraction and if the person affected feels it's been unfair I do not believe it is asking much for a simple summary (thats not 30-40 a day). Many other forums i've been too (e.g. 2+2) have a ban appeals and a talk to a mod section.
TL:DR
1) Small Fluctuations =/= Large Fluctuations
2) Big Infractions =/= Every Infraction =/= Unjust Infractions
3) Thus if you have a good contributing member who feels that they have been subject to a large fluctuation temporary banning I can't see how it is good for the forum if Nazi Germany rules apply over that.
4) This forum is not thriving, a forum thrives on its member base as much as the moderation. I wouldn't want closed book moderation (on everything) driving away potential contributors who feel slighted. The fact Beagle still posts here shows what kinda addiction he has for the game, he's been temp banned so many times, and not really getting why, he actually made a last stand thread. I don't think anyone will argue that temp bans are reforming when the person doesn't get wtf the temp ban was for.
hurripilot
01-08-2010, 01:09 AM
Ajuk,
This thread was not created to start a war between mods and members on the forums. If you have a beef with Vi, PM her. It's very rude to air your private grievances in public, almost as rude as it is to imply that Vi, one of the most productive and helpful members of this community, is somehow targeting you specifically. Your post added nothing to the discussion and was troll-worthy. My guess is that that is the reason you were reprimanded.
This thread was not created to start a war between mods and members on the forums. If you have a beef with Vi, PM her. It's very rude to air your private grievances in public, almost as rude as it is to imply that Vi, one of the most productive and helpful members of this community, is somehow targeting you specifically. Your post added nothing to the discussion and was troll-worthy. My guess is that that is the reason you were reprimanded.
Herodadotus
01-08-2010, 01:11 AM
Well, I was infracted by nesnl for saying this:
http://altitudegame.com/forums/showpost.php?p=30159&postcount=4 ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ????
I don't get it?
Does anyone see how this breaks any of the rules?
I sure don't.
I have broken rules before, but I am repented, I don't get this.
And as Beagle said, there was no reason just:
So someone please tell me about this.
I think also the best moderators are:
1. PIEFACE
2. KUJA900
PS: Pieface has beens so HELPFUL! :) :) :D
Well, it's still on the forums, and such blatant sucking up must also annoy the two that you complimented also. I know I would be. Infraction or not, I just needed to get that off my chest.
EDIT: Hurripilot found the words I was looking for.
http://altitudegame.com/forums/showpost.php?p=30159&postcount=4 ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ????
I don't get it?
Does anyone see how this breaks any of the rules?
I sure don't.
I have broken rules before, but I am repented, I don't get this.
And as Beagle said, there was no reason just:
So someone please tell me about this.
I think also the best moderators are:
1. PIEFACE
2. KUJA900
PS: Pieface has beens so HELPFUL! :) :) :D
Well, it's still on the forums, and such blatant sucking up must also annoy the two that you complimented also. I know I would be. Infraction or not, I just needed to get that off my chest.
EDIT: Hurripilot found the words I was looking for.
nesnl
01-08-2010, 01:19 AM
The crux.
Its not been slightly differently, there have been some quite big fluctuations.
Also I agree it is unfair to ask for an explanation for each infraction, nor would I or have I asked for that. A banning (temp or otherwise) is not a tiny infraction and if the person affected feels it's been unfair I do not believe it is asking much for a simple summary (thats not 30-40 a day). Many other forums i've been too (e.g. 2+2) have a ban appeals and a talk to a mod section.
TL:DR
1) Small Fluctuations =/= Large Fluctuations
2) Big Infractions =/= Every Infraction =/= Unjust Infractions
3) Thus if you have a good contributing member who feels that they have been subject to a large fluctuation temporary banning I can't see how it is good for the forum if Nazi Germany rules apply over that.
4) This forum is not thriving, a forum thrives on its member base as much as the moderation. I wouldn't want closed book moderation (on everything) driving away potential contributors who feel slighted. The fact Beagle still posts here shows what kinda addiction he has for the game, he's been temp banned so many times, and not really getting why, he actually made a last stand thread. I don't think anyone will argue that temp bans are reforming when the person doesn't get wtf the temp ban was for.
First, why make a TLDR section that is longer than the rest of the post? I thought that was kinda funny.
Second, don't assume that there have been fluctuations in moderation. We the moderators see every infraction that is given out and you do not. Just because a couple of people make their infractions public doesn't mean you have a good idea of which posts are being infracted. As a result there is no possible way you could be expected to determine if any specific infraction you know about is somehow a "large fluctuation" from the norm.
I think for the most part I have seen fairly consistent moderation coming from all the moderators. Sure there are a few instances here or there where I might not have given an infraction but again, we are human, and you seem to refuse the idea that different moderators might handle a situation differently than another.
I think you should defer to DiogenesDog's post and realize that most users have never received an infraction and an even smaller portion of those who have received infractions have got to the point where they were banned. I really don't understand what the big deal is about because I think that on a whole most things on these forums are allowed unless they explicitly breaking the rules.
Its not been slightly differently, there have been some quite big fluctuations.
Also I agree it is unfair to ask for an explanation for each infraction, nor would I or have I asked for that. A banning (temp or otherwise) is not a tiny infraction and if the person affected feels it's been unfair I do not believe it is asking much for a simple summary (thats not 30-40 a day). Many other forums i've been too (e.g. 2+2) have a ban appeals and a talk to a mod section.
TL:DR
1) Small Fluctuations =/= Large Fluctuations
2) Big Infractions =/= Every Infraction =/= Unjust Infractions
3) Thus if you have a good contributing member who feels that they have been subject to a large fluctuation temporary banning I can't see how it is good for the forum if Nazi Germany rules apply over that.
4) This forum is not thriving, a forum thrives on its member base as much as the moderation. I wouldn't want closed book moderation (on everything) driving away potential contributors who feel slighted. The fact Beagle still posts here shows what kinda addiction he has for the game, he's been temp banned so many times, and not really getting why, he actually made a last stand thread. I don't think anyone will argue that temp bans are reforming when the person doesn't get wtf the temp ban was for.
First, why make a TLDR section that is longer than the rest of the post? I thought that was kinda funny.
Second, don't assume that there have been fluctuations in moderation. We the moderators see every infraction that is given out and you do not. Just because a couple of people make their infractions public doesn't mean you have a good idea of which posts are being infracted. As a result there is no possible way you could be expected to determine if any specific infraction you know about is somehow a "large fluctuation" from the norm.
I think for the most part I have seen fairly consistent moderation coming from all the moderators. Sure there are a few instances here or there where I might not have given an infraction but again, we are human, and you seem to refuse the idea that different moderators might handle a situation differently than another.
I think you should defer to DiogenesDog's post and realize that most users have never received an infraction and an even smaller portion of those who have received infractions have got to the point where they were banned. I really don't understand what the big deal is about because I think that on a whole most things on these forums are allowed unless they explicitly breaking the rules.
Pieface
01-08-2010, 01:20 AM
Anyway, this discussion is currently going nowhere. I think the main point to be taken from all of this is that we try to do our best to uphold the forum rules and maintain healthy discussion, but at the end of the day we are all human and as such can certainly make mistakes.
Most people on the forums only have one or two active infractions at the most at any one time. If anyone is finding that they often have 4-5 infractions and are getting banned from these several times, the infraction system is not doing its job. The system is meant to make users aware of the Forum Rules, not to ban every member that posts something that remotely violates them. If you are finding that you are often getting banned for infractions, maybe you should look a bit over your behavior and see how you could improve. For example, there is no need to be calling the OP of a thread a moron or trolling just because what they have suggested might not be feasible. Instead, simply let them know in a civilized manner why the idea wouldn't make sense and move on.
What saddens me the most about the current situation is precisely the fact that some people just can't seem to learn from mistakes. People like Beagle have proven time and again to be constructive and helpful posters on the forum when they want to be. The reality is that if you do your best to stick to the forum rules getting banned from the forums should not even be an issue.
There are times when the above does not apply, and when a useful poster gets banned for absolutely no reason (as in the recent picture problem). These are the times when I'd like to see some way to appeal your ban and let the powers at be decide what will happen. I'll say this one last time, if you really believe there should be a way to ask for injustice to be examined then we need to brainstorm a good way to do that.
tl;dr: I think hurri hit it spot on with his previous post: we're here to promote friendly discussion but at the same time anyone can make mistakes. We try to adhere to the Forum Rules and our own judgement as much as possible, but we're not perfect and don't pretend to be. If you think you have received an unjust infraction, PM the mod who gave it to you or another Mod and we'll take a look into the situation. I personally try to respond to every PM regarding infractions that I get, and fully support transparency in the reasoning behind infractions and mod mistakes in general. We strive to make this forum the best it can be, not to drive helpful members away from posting!
Sorry for the walls of text, just wanted to put that out there.
Edit: @hurri's post (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showpost.php?p=31004&postcount=68): You can find a complete list of the Forum Mods and how to contact us here. (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showgroups.php) In general, our responsibilities are to make sure that the Forum Rules (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304) are followed as much as possible, while at the same time promoting friendly discussion, deleting inappropriate content, and overseeing specific issues such as the banning of advertising spam bots and looking into ban evasion issues. Hope that helped.
Most people on the forums only have one or two active infractions at the most at any one time. If anyone is finding that they often have 4-5 infractions and are getting banned from these several times, the infraction system is not doing its job. The system is meant to make users aware of the Forum Rules, not to ban every member that posts something that remotely violates them. If you are finding that you are often getting banned for infractions, maybe you should look a bit over your behavior and see how you could improve. For example, there is no need to be calling the OP of a thread a moron or trolling just because what they have suggested might not be feasible. Instead, simply let them know in a civilized manner why the idea wouldn't make sense and move on.
What saddens me the most about the current situation is precisely the fact that some people just can't seem to learn from mistakes. People like Beagle have proven time and again to be constructive and helpful posters on the forum when they want to be. The reality is that if you do your best to stick to the forum rules getting banned from the forums should not even be an issue.
There are times when the above does not apply, and when a useful poster gets banned for absolutely no reason (as in the recent picture problem). These are the times when I'd like to see some way to appeal your ban and let the powers at be decide what will happen. I'll say this one last time, if you really believe there should be a way to ask for injustice to be examined then we need to brainstorm a good way to do that.
tl;dr: I think hurri hit it spot on with his previous post: we're here to promote friendly discussion but at the same time anyone can make mistakes. We try to adhere to the Forum Rules and our own judgement as much as possible, but we're not perfect and don't pretend to be. If you think you have received an unjust infraction, PM the mod who gave it to you or another Mod and we'll take a look into the situation. I personally try to respond to every PM regarding infractions that I get, and fully support transparency in the reasoning behind infractions and mod mistakes in general. We strive to make this forum the best it can be, not to drive helpful members away from posting!
Sorry for the walls of text, just wanted to put that out there.
Edit: @hurri's post (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showpost.php?p=31004&postcount=68): You can find a complete list of the Forum Mods and how to contact us here. (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showgroups.php) In general, our responsibilities are to make sure that the Forum Rules (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304) are followed as much as possible, while at the same time promoting friendly discussion, deleting inappropriate content, and overseeing specific issues such as the banning of advertising spam bots and looking into ban evasion issues. Hope that helped.
nesnl
01-08-2010, 01:24 AM
Also, for anyone who is interested there is a list of the forums leaders that is linked on the main forum page. It is at the bottom and should say "View Forum Leaders."
http://altitudegame.com/forums/showgroups.php
http://altitudegame.com/forums/showgroups.php
Vi*
01-08-2010, 01:25 AM
Ajuk: Deleting an infracted post doesn't take away your infraction.
Heradotus: that is not the post we're referring to.
............wait what? I always tought tyr was a mod.... I've gotten a few messages from people in-game who were under the impression that certain moderators of proleague/forums also had global moderation privileges, so I understand your confusion.
I think this is a serious misunderstanding. So proleague organizers: if you must insist on constantly threatening to ban people, please make it clearer that you only mean from proleague, and not from anything official. This one guy messaged me all worried that a certain mod was going to ban him from the entire game, and he was pissed off 'cause he'd paid for it =P
Heradotus: that is not the post we're referring to.
............wait what? I always tought tyr was a mod.... I've gotten a few messages from people in-game who were under the impression that certain moderators of proleague/forums also had global moderation privileges, so I understand your confusion.
I think this is a serious misunderstanding. So proleague organizers: if you must insist on constantly threatening to ban people, please make it clearer that you only mean from proleague, and not from anything official. This one guy messaged me all worried that a certain mod was going to ban him from the entire game, and he was pissed off 'cause he'd paid for it =P
hurripilot
01-08-2010, 01:27 AM
Thanks to Pieface, Maimer, and Vi for the info, that should help clear some confusion :)
CCN
01-08-2010, 01:31 AM
So I take from your post Maimer that you and all other Mod's agreed with all of Beagles bans. Good to know. That would be the main point of this thread for me. I was under the impression maybe some moderators wouldn't of banned Beagle for that picture. \
To be completely honest, I don't get why that post was ban worthy and i'm not sure which of my posts in the future will be ban worthy. If you could tell me the general rule here i'll be sure to avoid it, is it pictures? Or animal pictures saying stuff, or aggressive pictures. I would like to use picture replies but have stayed clear due to how it seems to be infraction worthy.
Edit:
Yes my TL:DR was longer then the real post.... =(
To be completely honest, I don't get why that post was ban worthy and i'm not sure which of my posts in the future will be ban worthy. If you could tell me the general rule here i'll be sure to avoid it, is it pictures? Or animal pictures saying stuff, or aggressive pictures. I would like to use picture replies but have stayed clear due to how it seems to be infraction worthy.
Edit:
Yes my TL:DR was longer then the real post.... =(
Pieface
01-08-2010, 01:35 AM
So I take from your post Maimer that you and all other Mod's agreed with all of Beagles bans.
Good to know. That would be the main point of this thread for me. I was under the impression maybe some moderators wouldn't of banned Beagle for that picture
I don't think that was what Maimer was trying to say at all. Several of the Mods have publicly disagreed with that ban, and we have also requested a reversal of the picture infraction in the private Mod forum. Please read the thread before you post, because it really isn't fair to those who spend a lot of time keeping these forums as friendly and safe as possible.
Good to know. That would be the main point of this thread for me. I was under the impression maybe some moderators wouldn't of banned Beagle for that picture
I don't think that was what Maimer was trying to say at all. Several of the Mods have publicly disagreed with that ban, and we have also requested a reversal of the picture infraction in the private Mod forum. Please read the thread before you post, because it really isn't fair to those who spend a lot of time keeping these forums as friendly and safe as possible.
Vi*
01-08-2010, 01:35 AM
So I take from your post Maimer that you and all other Mod's agreed with all of Beagles bans.
Good to know. That would be the main point of this thread for me. I was under the impression maybe some moderators wouldn't of banned Beagle for that picture
I love Beagle, and I really hope he sticks around, because he does contribute a lot, but we can't bend the rules for him. The moderators hope that he will become accustomed to the culture of the altitude forums, where such pictures are not considered acceptable.
Edit: Obviously Pieface and Kuja disagree with that picture infraction, but you can refer to Beagle's own post above, listing his many other infractions, to see why he was banned. If we bend the rules for Beagle, then everyone is going to expect they can post those types of pictures, and these forums will become intolerable to me and unreadable to Lam and Karl.
Good to know. That would be the main point of this thread for me. I was under the impression maybe some moderators wouldn't of banned Beagle for that picture
I love Beagle, and I really hope he sticks around, because he does contribute a lot, but we can't bend the rules for him. The moderators hope that he will become accustomed to the culture of the altitude forums, where such pictures are not considered acceptable.
Edit: Obviously Pieface and Kuja disagree with that picture infraction, but you can refer to Beagle's own post above, listing his many other infractions, to see why he was banned. If we bend the rules for Beagle, then everyone is going to expect they can post those types of pictures, and these forums will become intolerable to me and unreadable to Lam and Karl.
CCN
01-08-2010, 01:42 AM
I don't think that was what Maimer was trying to say at all. Several of the Mods have publicly disagreed with that ban, and we have also requested a reversal of the picture infraction in the private Mod forum. Please read the thread before you post, because it really isn't fair to those who spend a lot of time keeping these forums as friendly and safe as possible.
I have read the thread (sadly I think i'm the most prolific poster in here), I also read this
"I think for the most part I have seen fairly consistent moderation coming from all the moderators. Sure there are a few instances here or there where I might not have given an infraction but again, we are human, and you seem to refuse the idea that different moderators might handle a situation differently than another."
A few instances giving an infraction infers to me there may be a few differences around the line but nothing big e.g. a banning. Unless it was a 5 point infraction ban where the pic infraction lead to the full ban (and I accept i clearly missed it if this was the case) -If that's not how to take it then i'll just leave it at I don't understand.
I appreciate all your work on the forums, you put in time and it sucks when people shizzle all over it. For example my last infraction issue was through you and I really appreciated your fair and balanced approach.
Also between your post and Vi's about picture's not being acceptable and a reversal of the picture there seems to be some... discussion going on about the issue. So i'll chill down and ask later if pics are okay as replies.
I have read the thread (sadly I think i'm the most prolific poster in here), I also read this
"I think for the most part I have seen fairly consistent moderation coming from all the moderators. Sure there are a few instances here or there where I might not have given an infraction but again, we are human, and you seem to refuse the idea that different moderators might handle a situation differently than another."
A few instances giving an infraction infers to me there may be a few differences around the line but nothing big e.g. a banning. Unless it was a 5 point infraction ban where the pic infraction lead to the full ban (and I accept i clearly missed it if this was the case) -If that's not how to take it then i'll just leave it at I don't understand.
I appreciate all your work on the forums, you put in time and it sucks when people shizzle all over it. For example my last infraction issue was through you and I really appreciated your fair and balanced approach.
Also between your post and Vi's about picture's not being acceptable and a reversal of the picture there seems to be some... discussion going on about the issue. So i'll chill down and ask later if pics are okay as replies.
tyr
01-08-2010, 01:45 AM
I've gotten a few messages from people in-game who were under the impression that certain moderators of proleague/forums also had global moderation privileges, so I understand your confusion.
I think this is a serious misunderstanding. So proleague organizers: if you must insist on constantly threatening to ban people, please make it clearer that you only mean from proleague, and not from anything official. This one guy messaged me all worried that a certain mod was going to ban him from the entire game, and he was pissed off 'cause he'd paid for it =P
Yeah I agree 100%.
But then again, it's always the same problem. We're only admins on the two proleague servers hosted by tec27. They are passworded so it should be pretty clear that they are not official servers and that the people with admin privileges there are only "extensions" of tec's hands. Not global admins or something.
That being said, I personally never banned anyone and I usually talk with the admins who tend to immediately ban without preliminary kick, each time they do it. I think that there shouldn't bee too many problems of that kind left in a bit. People who deserve to be banned will be banned for ever, and the others will know that they shouldn't create trouble, and everyone will be happy.
Oh, and as the others already said, I'm not moderator here nor do I wish to be one, I already have way too much stuff to do.
I think this is a serious misunderstanding. So proleague organizers: if you must insist on constantly threatening to ban people, please make it clearer that you only mean from proleague, and not from anything official. This one guy messaged me all worried that a certain mod was going to ban him from the entire game, and he was pissed off 'cause he'd paid for it =P
Yeah I agree 100%.
But then again, it's always the same problem. We're only admins on the two proleague servers hosted by tec27. They are passworded so it should be pretty clear that they are not official servers and that the people with admin privileges there are only "extensions" of tec's hands. Not global admins or something.
That being said, I personally never banned anyone and I usually talk with the admins who tend to immediately ban without preliminary kick, each time they do it. I think that there shouldn't bee too many problems of that kind left in a bit. People who deserve to be banned will be banned for ever, and the others will know that they shouldn't create trouble, and everyone will be happy.
Oh, and as the others already said, I'm not moderator here nor do I wish to be one, I already have way too much stuff to do.
Pieface
01-08-2010, 01:55 AM
Pictures seem to be a hotly debated issue. Obviously posting just a picture without an argument that accompanies it does not make sense. Lamster said in a previous patch thread that it was ok if Beagle posted pictures as long as they had a point, or were accompanied by some text explaining the point he was trying to get across. That particular post was trying to get people to stop flaming each other (or at least that is how it appeared to me) and get back to a friendly discussion, and I can't blame Beagle for that.
The attached picture (courtesy of Beagle) is what I had the impression were the type of picture-posts that should get infractions. That picture was the only content of a thread created to show the member's lack of knowledge of how the forums worked, in addition to trying to get Kuja's inbox spammed with pointless messages. While I had a good laugh when I saw that, it really does not lend to the kind of discussions this forum is supposed to promote.
The attached picture (courtesy of Beagle) is what I had the impression were the type of picture-posts that should get infractions. That picture was the only content of a thread created to show the member's lack of knowledge of how the forums worked, in addition to trying to get Kuja's inbox spammed with pointless messages. While I had a good laugh when I saw that, it really does not lend to the kind of discussions this forum is supposed to promote.
Beagle
01-08-2010, 02:06 AM
I love Beagle, and I really hope he sticks around, because he does contribute a lot, but we can't bend the rules for him. The moderators hope that he will become accustomed to the culture of the altitude forums, where such pictures are not considered acceptable.
Edit: Obviously Pieface and Kuja disagree with that picture infraction, but you can refer to Beagle's own post above, listing his many other infractions, to see why he was banned. If we bend the rules for Beagle, then everyone is going to expect they can post those types of pictures, and these forums will become intolerable to me and unreadable to Lam and Karl.
This right here is a big part of what this thread is about.
There is nowhere in the rules saying anything about pictures not being acceptable.
"The moderators hope that he will become accustomed to the culture of the altitude forums" is a great sentiment, but giving me red cards over and over does not help me become accustomed to the culture of the Altitude Forums. If someone would like to take this opportunity to explain what I'm doing wrong, that'd be great, but I'm pretty sure no-one has done that yet.
Basically, why am I being punished for posting a picture that was on topic when the rules say nothing about that being a violation? This isn't some lab test where you shock the rat for biting the cheese and hope he gets it eventually. You can straight out just talk to me in English instead of "hoping I will become accustomed".
The point of me posting all my infractions was to point out that when I get red cards for incredibly minor stuff, its pretty easy to get five running at the same time. What was that Dio said before about giving out red cards more often to repeat offenders? Is that standard mod thinking? If so, will I ever get rid of all my infractions, seeing as I'll get given red cards for things someone else might be posting in the same thread and not even get warned for?
EDIT: Oh, and I forgot there was a page three. Yeah, Pieface, I got instabanned for posting that because it was encouraging someone to spam Kuja. Good times. Still, there's nothing wrong with the picture itself, its more that the mocking of the new user and the spamming Kuja thing.
All I'm saying is don't ban me literally because I posted a picture. Judge the picture the same as any other content like text. If I'd written "Quit getting mad at video games" in response to the flaming instead of posting a picture saying the exact same thing, I doubt there'd have been an issue. That's all.
Edit: Obviously Pieface and Kuja disagree with that picture infraction, but you can refer to Beagle's own post above, listing his many other infractions, to see why he was banned. If we bend the rules for Beagle, then everyone is going to expect they can post those types of pictures, and these forums will become intolerable to me and unreadable to Lam and Karl.
This right here is a big part of what this thread is about.
There is nowhere in the rules saying anything about pictures not being acceptable.
"The moderators hope that he will become accustomed to the culture of the altitude forums" is a great sentiment, but giving me red cards over and over does not help me become accustomed to the culture of the Altitude Forums. If someone would like to take this opportunity to explain what I'm doing wrong, that'd be great, but I'm pretty sure no-one has done that yet.
Basically, why am I being punished for posting a picture that was on topic when the rules say nothing about that being a violation? This isn't some lab test where you shock the rat for biting the cheese and hope he gets it eventually. You can straight out just talk to me in English instead of "hoping I will become accustomed".
The point of me posting all my infractions was to point out that when I get red cards for incredibly minor stuff, its pretty easy to get five running at the same time. What was that Dio said before about giving out red cards more often to repeat offenders? Is that standard mod thinking? If so, will I ever get rid of all my infractions, seeing as I'll get given red cards for things someone else might be posting in the same thread and not even get warned for?
EDIT: Oh, and I forgot there was a page three. Yeah, Pieface, I got instabanned for posting that because it was encouraging someone to spam Kuja. Good times. Still, there's nothing wrong with the picture itself, its more that the mocking of the new user and the spamming Kuja thing.
All I'm saying is don't ban me literally because I posted a picture. Judge the picture the same as any other content like text. If I'd written "Quit getting mad at video games" in response to the flaming instead of posting a picture saying the exact same thing, I doubt there'd have been an issue. That's all.
nesnl
01-08-2010, 02:31 AM
In response to CCN: the picture that Beagle posted didn't result in a ban because of that image alone. It happened to be the 5th infraction that he received so it was a combination of all 5 that caused the temporary ban. It is automatic in the system that you get temporary banned if you receive 5 infractions.
In response to Beagle: The pictures issue has been hashed over quite a few times and even Lamster posted his thoughts on the subject. Here is the link: http://altitudegame.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18075&postcount=22 Was this not able to explain to you what you're doing wrong? So don't say that this has never been gone over before because you have been around long enough to know that that isn't true.
So please re-read the forum guidelines and then when you are posting a picture ask yourself if, first, it is on topic and appropriate to that specific forum. Second, decide if it clearly conveys the message or if you feel like people need to infer your meaning. If people need to infer then include text that explains what you are trying to say. If it contains anything that is prohibited in the forum guidelines then don't post it. If it is merely a "+1" picture post then don't post it. I think my impression from you is that you are smart enough to have figured all this out and that you are using your supposed ignorance on the subject to justify some of your posts. So I don't really think that any of these guidelines are news to you, but either way, here is a general guideline for you to follow.
In response to Beagle: The pictures issue has been hashed over quite a few times and even Lamster posted his thoughts on the subject. Here is the link: http://altitudegame.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18075&postcount=22 Was this not able to explain to you what you're doing wrong? So don't say that this has never been gone over before because you have been around long enough to know that that isn't true.
So please re-read the forum guidelines and then when you are posting a picture ask yourself if, first, it is on topic and appropriate to that specific forum. Second, decide if it clearly conveys the message or if you feel like people need to infer your meaning. If people need to infer then include text that explains what you are trying to say. If it contains anything that is prohibited in the forum guidelines then don't post it. If it is merely a "+1" picture post then don't post it. I think my impression from you is that you are smart enough to have figured all this out and that you are using your supposed ignorance on the subject to justify some of your posts. So I don't really think that any of these guidelines are news to you, but either way, here is a general guideline for you to follow.
Vi*
01-08-2010, 02:42 AM
"Quit getting mad at video games," as text, is the kind of post I would love to eliminate from these forums. If what you have to say isn't important enough that it can stand alone as text, without a picture of an animal behind it, you shouldn't be posting it at all.
Did you know that there are ten people with complete mod power in these forums? The couple active mods are the ones with higher tolerance for this stuff. If the moderating style seems inconsistent, it's because this is not a double-blind test. The low-tolerance mods don't like reading the forums, and hence our stricter infraction style doesn't usually reach you.
Did you know that there are ten people with complete mod power in these forums? The couple active mods are the ones with higher tolerance for this stuff. If the moderating style seems inconsistent, it's because this is not a double-blind test. The low-tolerance mods don't like reading the forums, and hence our stricter infraction style doesn't usually reach you.
Beagle
01-08-2010, 02:46 AM
Yes, and from that great explanation by Lamster I garnered that if a picture is on topic, its fine. Like I said, if I'd posted what the picture was saying in text, I doubt there'd have been any problems. I wanted to know why posting a picture has such a huge stigma.
Anyway, considering that we now appear to be getting into the territory of accusations, I smell bad blood just around the corner. I'd rather just give up on this topic instead of going down that road. To paraphrase from a conversation I had with someone else, I understand this place should be kept neat and tidy, sure, but I don't understand how once you enter this forum its like being in a paralell universe. You know how you weigh less on the Moon? Its like everything here carries more dramatic weight.
Starting this thread, making these replies, I always think to myself how wierd it is to spend five or ten minutes writing out a decent length post about something as mundane as posting a picture on an internet forum.
It's surreal. Why do we always have to be at each others throats at least once a month? Can't we just chill the hell out? Its a forum for a game, yet we carry ourselves like we're in a court of law. Makes me wish I'd never found this place and had just stuck with the game by itself to be honest, and come to think of it, that's probably a really good idea.
Anyway, considering that we now appear to be getting into the territory of accusations, I smell bad blood just around the corner. I'd rather just give up on this topic instead of going down that road. To paraphrase from a conversation I had with someone else, I understand this place should be kept neat and tidy, sure, but I don't understand how once you enter this forum its like being in a paralell universe. You know how you weigh less on the Moon? Its like everything here carries more dramatic weight.
Starting this thread, making these replies, I always think to myself how wierd it is to spend five or ten minutes writing out a decent length post about something as mundane as posting a picture on an internet forum.
It's surreal. Why do we always have to be at each others throats at least once a month? Can't we just chill the hell out? Its a forum for a game, yet we carry ourselves like we're in a court of law. Makes me wish I'd never found this place and had just stuck with the game by itself to be honest, and come to think of it, that's probably a really good idea.
nesnl
01-08-2010, 03:22 AM
Just because it's the internet doesn't mean it gives anyone the license to do whatever they want. There seems to be this idea among some people in today's world that somehow by being on the internet that it gives them license to say, act, do whatever they want. I want to reiterate that these forums are owned and operated by Nimbly Games and their main purpose is to provide support to users and a means of feedback for the creators. Everything else that we use these forums for is provided as a courtesy to all of us. Just because you or anyone else wants to claim that you are just "posting a picture on the internet" doesn't mean that where you are doing it is alright. I think there is a disconnect between what a lot of people think should be allowed anywhere on the internet and the fact that this is a privately owned and operated site that can choose to enforce any rules they deem fit. This is where i think the problem lies is that time and time again there are a few people who think "this is the internet and I should be able to act however I want!" instead of realizing that there is a culture with rules and guidelines and trying to figure out how to operate within those rules and guidelines. Remember that all kinds of people use these forums including young children. If Nimbly Games wants the content of their Official Forums to be regulated in a certain way then it is well within their rights to do so. It is your responsibility to decide if the way that it is regulated is something you want to be a part of or whether you are better suited for somewhere else that is more relaxed.
[Y]
01-08-2010, 03:32 AM
Noooo Don't give up, Beagle!
Don't take the coward's way out.
Stand up and fight for your picture-posting rights!
Don't take the coward's way out.
Stand up and fight for your picture-posting rights!
hurripilot
01-08-2010, 03:51 AM
Things I liked about Beagle's latest posts :
- Anti-flamming/over-dramatics on the forums
- Realization that there might be some people taking things a bit too seriously sometimes on these forums
- Giant sandwich fishermen reeling in a Coke beneath a sky populated by Ruffles-bird hybrids
Things I did not like so much :
- Beagle giving up, after a storied career of hilariously weeding out the idiots from this forum and making it a better place through humor and common sense.
Don't go, Beagie, don't go! We won't survive without you!
Edit : Wow, that pic got nabbed quick. If anybody wants to see it, PM me :p
- Anti-flamming/over-dramatics on the forums
- Realization that there might be some people taking things a bit too seriously sometimes on these forums
- Giant sandwich fishermen reeling in a Coke beneath a sky populated by Ruffles-bird hybrids
Things I did not like so much :
- Beagle giving up, after a storied career of hilariously weeding out the idiots from this forum and making it a better place through humor and common sense.
Don't go, Beagie, don't go! We won't survive without you!
Edit : Wow, that pic got nabbed quick. If anybody wants to see it, PM me :p
[Y]
01-08-2010, 03:54 AM
The giant picture with the sandwich and coke and ruffle-birds is gone, and it doesn't say "banned" under Beagle's name. Does that mean Beagle deleted his post and is gonna stay? Or did maimed delete his post and is in the process of giving beagle his final infraction???
:O
:O
Herodadotus
01-08-2010, 04:14 AM
Ajuk: Deleting an infracted post doesn't take away your infraction.
Heradotus: that is not the post we're referring to.
Ah, my mistake. :D
Heradotus: that is not the post we're referring to.
Ah, my mistake. :D
eth
01-08-2010, 04:16 AM
"Quit getting mad at video games," as text, is the kind of post I would love to eliminate from these forums. If what you have to say isn't important enough that it can stand alone as text, without a picture of an animal behind it, you shouldn't be posting it at all.
Did you know that there are ten people with complete mod power in these forums? The couple active mods are the ones with higher tolerance for this stuff. If the moderating style seems inconsistent, it's because this is not a double-blind test. The low-tolerance mods don't like reading the forums, and hence our stricter infraction style doesn't usually reach you.
If you get annoyed by that image, I'd like to know your reaction to 90% of the forum these days, and why you haven't just loaded them up with infractions. I mean what's worse, "h*Ai guise i think u shud maek alt 3D cus dats kool" or that image? And Im pretty sure the former didn't get an infraction?
I mean I completely understand Dios point about not banning/infracting stupidity on the official forums, but why does Beagle get an infraction for that image, which isn't even remotely on the same level as the **** you see in most posts around here? There's not much equality there, so it kinda seems like you're out to get him.
Did you know that there are ten people with complete mod power in these forums? The couple active mods are the ones with higher tolerance for this stuff. If the moderating style seems inconsistent, it's because this is not a double-blind test. The low-tolerance mods don't like reading the forums, and hence our stricter infraction style doesn't usually reach you.
If you get annoyed by that image, I'd like to know your reaction to 90% of the forum these days, and why you haven't just loaded them up with infractions. I mean what's worse, "h*Ai guise i think u shud maek alt 3D cus dats kool" or that image? And Im pretty sure the former didn't get an infraction?
I mean I completely understand Dios point about not banning/infracting stupidity on the official forums, but why does Beagle get an infraction for that image, which isn't even remotely on the same level as the **** you see in most posts around here? There's not much equality there, so it kinda seems like you're out to get him.
classicallad
01-08-2010, 04:46 AM
I'm going to stick my neck out here not to add any drama or to inflame anybody but simply because i have read this whole thread and want to give a brief synopsis of my views and thoughts.
IMO
We have tolerant and lenient moderators
Beagle absolutely adds to these forums and is usually on key
Beagle has been a scapegoat, made an example of
Altitude forums are becoming a soap opera!!
[mod edit: got ur goat]
just my two pennies =]
IMO
We have tolerant and lenient moderators
Beagle absolutely adds to these forums and is usually on key
Beagle has been a scapegoat, made an example of
Altitude forums are becoming a soap opera!!
[mod edit: got ur goat]
just my two pennies =]
Vi*
01-08-2010, 05:30 AM
...The low-tolerance mods don't like reading the forums, and hence our stricter infraction style doesn't usually reach you.
If you get annoyed by that image, I'd like to know your reaction to 90% of the forum these days, and why you haven't just loaded them up with infractions.... Read what you're quoting before you respond to it. To be clear: I don't read 90% of the forums, and I try to make sure it's that 90%. Other mods have already said this: you don't know 95% of the moderation that goes on. You don't see deleted posts, which is a great service to you. Someone receives twenty infractions, a bunch of which were given as warnings to help the rule-learning process, and all you see is the one you disagree with, ignoring the other 19.
I hope you are all learning, 'cause this is getting super boring. If I get tired of reading this thread, who will teach you? =[
If you get annoyed by that image, I'd like to know your reaction to 90% of the forum these days, and why you haven't just loaded them up with infractions.... Read what you're quoting before you respond to it. To be clear: I don't read 90% of the forums, and I try to make sure it's that 90%. Other mods have already said this: you don't know 95% of the moderation that goes on. You don't see deleted posts, which is a great service to you. Someone receives twenty infractions, a bunch of which were given as warnings to help the rule-learning process, and all you see is the one you disagree with, ignoring the other 19.
I hope you are all learning, 'cause this is getting super boring. If I get tired of reading this thread, who will teach you? =[
classicallad
01-08-2010, 05:43 AM
sure. i guess i only see whats accessible to me. i meant no harm. Pax
but my goat was cute, i was going to offer him to you Vi as a sacrifice =[
but my goat was cute, i was going to offer him to you Vi as a sacrifice =[
Vi*
01-08-2010, 05:46 AM
Well, Class, I did just edit a picture out of your post mostly for the purposes of making a terrible pun, so maybe I'm not a great mod after all ;]
I'm still laughing, at least.
I'm still laughing, at least.
as red as black
01-08-2010, 06:01 AM
TL;DR
Let's make a competing forum!
or
This is stupid and waste of time for everyone involved.
I play altitude because it's fun, I like seeing funny posts. Please don't infract people for trying to have a sense of humor, it seems that a lot of infractions are getting racked up for non-offensive, trivial things. Also, maybe instead of infracting, just PM someone and give them a warning, especially if it's for something as stupid as a picture or a sarcastic remark or whatever.
Infract stupid stuff like the 5,000 or so MAEK aLtItUd3 3-D posts.
Let's make a competing forum!
or
This is stupid and waste of time for everyone involved.
I play altitude because it's fun, I like seeing funny posts. Please don't infract people for trying to have a sense of humor, it seems that a lot of infractions are getting racked up for non-offensive, trivial things. Also, maybe instead of infracting, just PM someone and give them a warning, especially if it's for something as stupid as a picture or a sarcastic remark or whatever.
Infract stupid stuff like the 5,000 or so MAEK aLtItUd3 3-D posts.
-MH-CaptainVogez
01-08-2010, 06:33 AM
Either way ARAB (as stupid as the concept is) they are still making a suggestion to the community and keeping it contained (the best factor of all) but they just doin't understand Altitude as we do...
we can only hope that new posters to the forums will understand that they need to follow the rules and make it their business to make sure they know what can and cannot be done.
I still stand by the idea before that there needs to be a system to eliminate discrepancies in perspectives of themods - noone does anything wrong at all, but a consensus needs to be reached before anything becomes too hotly debated or accused.
This is a friendly community...
let's be friends :)
we can only hope that new posters to the forums will understand that they need to follow the rules and make it their business to make sure they know what can and cannot be done.
I still stand by the idea before that there needs to be a system to eliminate discrepancies in perspectives of themods - noone does anything wrong at all, but a consensus needs to be reached before anything becomes too hotly debated or accused.
This is a friendly community...
let's be friends :)
DiogenesDog
01-08-2010, 06:44 AM
Well I wouldn't normally do this and it's not like I have any grand powers to reverse decisions, but here's my take...
Lets see, recently I've got red cards for:
- Not one, but two red cards for this picture (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=29816#post29816) - The first was reversed so I can only imagine the mod in question really had it in for that post and just gave me another.
Agree that this is retarded.
- Saying that someone's absurd argument was retarded (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=24270#post24270) (Instant red card apparently)
Borderline imo. You were definitely being a dick there. The thing you don't seem to quite understand is that there's no special leniency given for JUSTIFIED flaming. Flaming is flaming. As a tip, before posting anything just imagine that you're replying to a respected member of the community instead of some idiot noob. Then imagine how your tone will be perceived.
- Disagree with a suggestion of a new user? Instant red card (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23175#post23175).
I handed out this one, and it had absolutely nothing to do with disagreeing with that guy. You were trying to get Kuja's account spammed. Don't screw with other people's forum experience. This has nothing to do with your motivation for posting... it has to do with the fact that you shouldn't be trying to fill up other ppl's inboxes.
- Someone gravedigs Maimer's EXP thread, I post in big letters (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=22969#post22969). Red Card.
Similar issue. I don't care how friendly the message is, posting in huge text is obnoxious and impossible to ignore. Don't do it.
- Big Red Letters (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13840#post13840) net me two in one thread. No-one else was doing anything wrong though, right?
Given the context, this one doesn't bother me. But just don't post in giant letters and you'll be safe, ok?
So, no, I don't agree. If you're me, it really is hard to avoid getting infractions, and those newer ones I got say they won't expire until April/June.
Well, no one else has a problem with it. It's a bummer that you can't figure out how to follow the rules, but you can't honestly expect the rules to be changed just because you're slower to learn them than literally every other active forum member, right?
Anyway, you should probably take your own normal advice and stop getting so worked up about some words on the internet. The constant melodrama over this is a bit hypocritical.
Lets see, recently I've got red cards for:
- Not one, but two red cards for this picture (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=29816#post29816) - The first was reversed so I can only imagine the mod in question really had it in for that post and just gave me another.
Agree that this is retarded.
- Saying that someone's absurd argument was retarded (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=24270#post24270) (Instant red card apparently)
Borderline imo. You were definitely being a dick there. The thing you don't seem to quite understand is that there's no special leniency given for JUSTIFIED flaming. Flaming is flaming. As a tip, before posting anything just imagine that you're replying to a respected member of the community instead of some idiot noob. Then imagine how your tone will be perceived.
- Disagree with a suggestion of a new user? Instant red card (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23175#post23175).
I handed out this one, and it had absolutely nothing to do with disagreeing with that guy. You were trying to get Kuja's account spammed. Don't screw with other people's forum experience. This has nothing to do with your motivation for posting... it has to do with the fact that you shouldn't be trying to fill up other ppl's inboxes.
- Someone gravedigs Maimer's EXP thread, I post in big letters (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=22969#post22969). Red Card.
Similar issue. I don't care how friendly the message is, posting in huge text is obnoxious and impossible to ignore. Don't do it.
- Big Red Letters (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13840#post13840) net me two in one thread. No-one else was doing anything wrong though, right?
Given the context, this one doesn't bother me. But just don't post in giant letters and you'll be safe, ok?
So, no, I don't agree. If you're me, it really is hard to avoid getting infractions, and those newer ones I got say they won't expire until April/June.
Well, no one else has a problem with it. It's a bummer that you can't figure out how to follow the rules, but you can't honestly expect the rules to be changed just because you're slower to learn them than literally every other active forum member, right?
Anyway, you should probably take your own normal advice and stop getting so worked up about some words on the internet. The constant melodrama over this is a bit hypocritical.
Beagle
01-08-2010, 06:53 AM
The constant melodrama over this is a bit hypocritical.
And here I thought we'd all just settled down.
And here I thought we'd all just settled down.
JDR
01-08-2010, 07:20 AM
There seems to be a lot of user-mod tension on this site, but I wouldn't put much blame on the users or moderators at all. It's the ridiculous set of rules that are the biggest turnoff for newcomers to this site (though the messengers, the mods, often do get shot :P). To be completely honest, Nimbly Games is making a fatal mistake in choosing to have their forums become synonymous with Auschwitz in the minds of their players. It's extremely dangerous, almost ARROGANT, for a relatively new, barely established, up and coming game to take the stance of "these are our forums, these are our rules, if you don't like it, don't post here", especially when some of the more seasoned veterans of the interwebs pretty much unanimously agree that there are infinite more desirable happy mediums between what we've got right now, and idea of total chaos and obscenity that these rules are in place to prevent!
Just to put things in perspective, I received 3 infractions and 1 warning for 4 posts that would not have even raised an eyebrow on any other forums I've ever been a participant on. I completely expect a moderator to completely miss the point of this and respond with "you should have read the rules in the first place". So, preemptively: the point you missed is that these rules are simply an enormous turnoff to many harmful and harmless users alike. I'll post within the rules if I want to post here, of course, but I'm just saying that not taking any constructive criticism on the rules whatsoever (especially when so so many people have problems with them) is a death wish for a game like this. Is there someone here who is actually from Nimbly Games that can comment or possibly explain why they choose to intentionally have a worse forum than what's possible? Or someone that can at least venture a guess as to why things are they way they are, and not pull an "If you don't like it, **** off"?
What makes what works perfectly on other forums somehow not nearly good enough for these forums?
Just to put things in perspective, I received 3 infractions and 1 warning for 4 posts that would not have even raised an eyebrow on any other forums I've ever been a participant on. I completely expect a moderator to completely miss the point of this and respond with "you should have read the rules in the first place". So, preemptively: the point you missed is that these rules are simply an enormous turnoff to many harmful and harmless users alike. I'll post within the rules if I want to post here, of course, but I'm just saying that not taking any constructive criticism on the rules whatsoever (especially when so so many people have problems with them) is a death wish for a game like this. Is there someone here who is actually from Nimbly Games that can comment or possibly explain why they choose to intentionally have a worse forum than what's possible? Or someone that can at least venture a guess as to why things are they way they are, and not pull an "If you don't like it, **** off"?
What makes what works perfectly on other forums somehow not nearly good enough for these forums?
hurripilot
01-08-2010, 07:59 AM
Open a new PM, into the "to" field, type "lamster; Karl", then copy all of that and put it into the message field, include "Sincerely, JDR" at the end, and hit "send". You now have a private PM convo with the two (and ONLY two) devs of this game. You are now speaking directly to Nimbly games.
The subject of this thread is the actions of the moderators and members of this forum, not those of Lam and Karl. The reason the forum has so many rules and they are enforced with such vigor is that this game is still being actively worked on. Lam and Karl read this forum to get a bead on what the community thinks of the game and any recent changes made. They also use it to view suggestions for the game and implement the ones that are feasible and have good community support. If lams and Karl have to piece through six-bajillion images and random posts and threads that have nothing to do with anything, this forum ceases to be useful to them, and they lose the majority of their link to the game.
Result? Players no longer have a say in what goes into the game and Lam and Karl no longer get opinions on what's in the game and what could be in the game.
Imho, that's not arrogance, but I'm sure Lams and Karl can do a better job of explaining, so please PM them and allow this thread to return to the topic at hand.
The subject of this thread is the actions of the moderators and members of this forum, not those of Lam and Karl. The reason the forum has so many rules and they are enforced with such vigor is that this game is still being actively worked on. Lam and Karl read this forum to get a bead on what the community thinks of the game and any recent changes made. They also use it to view suggestions for the game and implement the ones that are feasible and have good community support. If lams and Karl have to piece through six-bajillion images and random posts and threads that have nothing to do with anything, this forum ceases to be useful to them, and they lose the majority of their link to the game.
Result? Players no longer have a say in what goes into the game and Lam and Karl no longer get opinions on what's in the game and what could be in the game.
Imho, that's not arrogance, but I'm sure Lams and Karl can do a better job of explaining, so please PM them and allow this thread to return to the topic at hand.
mikesol
01-08-2010, 09:07 AM
Open a new PM, into the "to" field, type "lamster; Karl", then copy all of that and put it into the message field, include "Sincerely, JDR" at the end, and hit "send". You now have a private PM convo with the two (and ONLY two) devs of this game. You are now speaking directly to Nimbly games.
I'd like to point out it's usually not that simple. At least in the messages I've sent I've gotten absolutely no responses - whether it be me asking a question or it's me donating stuff to them.
Edit: Before I get jumped on - yes I realize it's probably unreasonable to expect responses but my point was that sending them a message is probably not the way to go about it. They say they read these forums and suggestions so I imagine they will have seen that post.
Result? Players no longer have a say in what goes into the game and Lam and Karl no longer get opinions on what's in the game and what could be in the game.
It seems to me that would mean the suggestion box and only the suggestion box be kept strictly policed where the other areas don't matter. If someone posts a picture or a stupid comment in the water cooler is that really affecting their ability to get suggestions from the game? In fact, why is it that suggestion is often policed less than other areas? I hardly think it's a useful suggestion to be like "I need 50 more planes with 9999 more perks with 3D effects and uh while you're at it make me a sandwich too."
Someone receives twenty infractions, a bunch of which were given as warnings to help the rule-learning process, and all you see is the one you disagree with, ignoring the other 19.
I feel the point that you are missing here is that many of us do not know what those other 19 are to even have opinions on that. Many of us are commenting on the ones we do see that we disagree with. Looking at Beagle's posts some of them I feel are perfectly justified. Others I question and don't agree with. Even if there is only one thing that you feel should have been handled differently then there is some change that could be used. I just feel a better system should be in place for how these things are handled and maybe a re-evaluation of the rules or more definitive things for some people. Of course, I have gotten 0 infractions and 0 warnings during my many months here and I plan on keeping it that way. But, then again, how many of my posts are particularly amusing or fun for people to read?
I'd like to point out it's usually not that simple. At least in the messages I've sent I've gotten absolutely no responses - whether it be me asking a question or it's me donating stuff to them.
Edit: Before I get jumped on - yes I realize it's probably unreasonable to expect responses but my point was that sending them a message is probably not the way to go about it. They say they read these forums and suggestions so I imagine they will have seen that post.
Result? Players no longer have a say in what goes into the game and Lam and Karl no longer get opinions on what's in the game and what could be in the game.
It seems to me that would mean the suggestion box and only the suggestion box be kept strictly policed where the other areas don't matter. If someone posts a picture or a stupid comment in the water cooler is that really affecting their ability to get suggestions from the game? In fact, why is it that suggestion is often policed less than other areas? I hardly think it's a useful suggestion to be like "I need 50 more planes with 9999 more perks with 3D effects and uh while you're at it make me a sandwich too."
Someone receives twenty infractions, a bunch of which were given as warnings to help the rule-learning process, and all you see is the one you disagree with, ignoring the other 19.
I feel the point that you are missing here is that many of us do not know what those other 19 are to even have opinions on that. Many of us are commenting on the ones we do see that we disagree with. Looking at Beagle's posts some of them I feel are perfectly justified. Others I question and don't agree with. Even if there is only one thing that you feel should have been handled differently then there is some change that could be used. I just feel a better system should be in place for how these things are handled and maybe a re-evaluation of the rules or more definitive things for some people. Of course, I have gotten 0 infractions and 0 warnings during my many months here and I plan on keeping it that way. But, then again, how many of my posts are particularly amusing or fun for people to read?
ryebone
01-08-2010, 11:46 AM
CCN's post above deserves an infraction for offering absolutely nothing to the topic at hand. While we're at it, I deserve an infraction for backseat moderating.
Part of the issue is the recent digression from the primary age group of this forum, leading to somewhat of an unwelcomed culture shift. From what I can tell, when this forum began the majority of users were more or less between 20 and 30 years old. Mostly reasonable, agreeable people who understand what it takes to make a computer game. I also believe the Steam release has dramatically lowered the average user age, and this huge influx of immaturity is directly responsible for the inane requests in the suggestions forum. Kids think they can get what they want if they beg hard enough; that shouldn't be news to anyone. The question is, how do we deal with this? You can't expect a kid to understand what a ridiculous request it is to ask for Altitude to be remade in 3D, but should they be punished for asking? I don't really know, but honest ignorance is certainly more forgivable (though no less annoying) than selective ignorance. This is where I believe the perceived inconsistency in moderating is happening.
Onto another topic, one possible approach would be to require ALL mods to read EVERY post, and flag certain posts if they're inappropriate. If over half the mods flag a post, that person gets an infraction. If it sounds too time-consuming, split up the forums so that each mod is "responsible" for two or three forums. This way, there has to be a relative consensus that a particular post is inappropriate before it is removed (besides obvious spam/useless posts; I fully trust the mods to have common sense when eliminating those posts). The water cooler can be left unmoderated, since that's the place for nerdragers to vent, and where racist jokes and profanity are not scorned. Place a disclaimer that entering the water cooler may be hazardous to your health.
Another thing that may help: put a big notice somewhere reminding people that, before making a post (particularly in tech support), to please use the search function to see if a similar topic has already been brought up. I know from previous experience that whenever I had a question, I'd make a post before checking if it was redundant, so I can certainly see how this would be a problem among newcomers. Place the notice right above the "submit reply" button, for anyone who's below ~25 postcount, and require people to mark that they've read the notice, like a EULA agreement. If there are still doubleposts, start handing out infractions.
To Vi: Perhaps when posts are deleted, move them to another subforum so that, if people want, they can browse through the endless piles of junk and understand just how much work the mods are putting in to keeping the forums organized? Think of it as a public trash folder. Or better yet, DON'T mod the forums for a week and see how people like it (That's a joke; don't do it, or at least warn me beforehand so I can avoid the forums).
To JDR: You have made ten posts and already received four warnings? Sorry if this sounds harsh, but when 40% of your posts are deemed garbage, it's hard for me to take what you say seriously.
Part of the issue is the recent digression from the primary age group of this forum, leading to somewhat of an unwelcomed culture shift. From what I can tell, when this forum began the majority of users were more or less between 20 and 30 years old. Mostly reasonable, agreeable people who understand what it takes to make a computer game. I also believe the Steam release has dramatically lowered the average user age, and this huge influx of immaturity is directly responsible for the inane requests in the suggestions forum. Kids think they can get what they want if they beg hard enough; that shouldn't be news to anyone. The question is, how do we deal with this? You can't expect a kid to understand what a ridiculous request it is to ask for Altitude to be remade in 3D, but should they be punished for asking? I don't really know, but honest ignorance is certainly more forgivable (though no less annoying) than selective ignorance. This is where I believe the perceived inconsistency in moderating is happening.
Onto another topic, one possible approach would be to require ALL mods to read EVERY post, and flag certain posts if they're inappropriate. If over half the mods flag a post, that person gets an infraction. If it sounds too time-consuming, split up the forums so that each mod is "responsible" for two or three forums. This way, there has to be a relative consensus that a particular post is inappropriate before it is removed (besides obvious spam/useless posts; I fully trust the mods to have common sense when eliminating those posts). The water cooler can be left unmoderated, since that's the place for nerdragers to vent, and where racist jokes and profanity are not scorned. Place a disclaimer that entering the water cooler may be hazardous to your health.
Another thing that may help: put a big notice somewhere reminding people that, before making a post (particularly in tech support), to please use the search function to see if a similar topic has already been brought up. I know from previous experience that whenever I had a question, I'd make a post before checking if it was redundant, so I can certainly see how this would be a problem among newcomers. Place the notice right above the "submit reply" button, for anyone who's below ~25 postcount, and require people to mark that they've read the notice, like a EULA agreement. If there are still doubleposts, start handing out infractions.
To Vi: Perhaps when posts are deleted, move them to another subforum so that, if people want, they can browse through the endless piles of junk and understand just how much work the mods are putting in to keeping the forums organized? Think of it as a public trash folder. Or better yet, DON'T mod the forums for a week and see how people like it (That's a joke; don't do it, or at least warn me beforehand so I can avoid the forums).
To JDR: You have made ten posts and already received four warnings? Sorry if this sounds harsh, but when 40% of your posts are deemed garbage, it's hard for me to take what you say seriously.
CCN
01-08-2010, 05:30 PM
Ryebone... what have I done to hurt you? What have I done so that you would hurt my emotions such as this.
RYEBONEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
(forgiveness only comes by being offered a place in [Ryebone])
RYEBONEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
(forgiveness only comes by being offered a place in [Ryebone])
Pieface
01-08-2010, 05:36 PM
If it sounds too time-consuming, split up the forums so that each mod is "responsible" for two or three forums.
The problem is that only about three or four of the mods read the forums on a regular basis. If moderation seems inconsistent, it may be because we missed a post or two. However, we always respond as applicable to posts that have been reported. Reporting posts is the forum's way of giving you all a tiny "Mod" button, so if you see something that you think violates the Forum Rules you get to have it looked at. If each Mod was assigned to a specific forum, then each forum would only have about one active moderator. If you think infractions and deletions are done unfairly now, imagine what it would be like if you had one person with supreme power over all the posts in a specific forum!
There seems to be a lot of user-mod tension on this site, but I wouldn't put much blame on the users or moderators at all. It's the ridiculous set of rules that are the biggest turnoff for newcomers to this site (though the messengers, the mods, often do get shot :P) ... It's extremely dangerous, almost ARROGANT, for a relatively new, barely established, up and coming game to take the stance of "these are our forums, these are our rules, if you don't like it, don't post here" ...
these rules are simply an enormous turnoff to many harmful and harmless users alike. I'll post within the rules if I want to post here, of course, but I'm just saying that not taking any constructive criticism on the rules whatsoever (especially when so so many people have problems with them) is a death wish for a game like this ... What makes what works perfectly on other forums somehow not nearly good enough for these forums?
The Admins of this forum did not make up the rules, these are basically the exact same set of rules that many other vBulletin forums use such as the Steam Forum Rules (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=651173). The reason these forums might seem more policed to you than other ones you've been on is exactly what you said, that Altitude at the moment is an independent game with a smallish but loyal following. The Steam Forums have something like 200 moderators for 200,000 members. As such, the Mods aren't able to read everything on those forums without spending tons of time doing so. I'd venture to guess that on those forums most Mods only look at reported posts. On these forums, however, there are about four active mods for the 600 or so active posters that contribute. Because this is a small community, we are able to read almost everything and because of that you might get the feel that the rules are a bit stricter than other places. I personally don't think our rules are stricter than everywhere else, just that they are actually more likely to be enforced!
The problem is that only about three or four of the mods read the forums on a regular basis. If moderation seems inconsistent, it may be because we missed a post or two. However, we always respond as applicable to posts that have been reported. Reporting posts is the forum's way of giving you all a tiny "Mod" button, so if you see something that you think violates the Forum Rules you get to have it looked at. If each Mod was assigned to a specific forum, then each forum would only have about one active moderator. If you think infractions and deletions are done unfairly now, imagine what it would be like if you had one person with supreme power over all the posts in a specific forum!
There seems to be a lot of user-mod tension on this site, but I wouldn't put much blame on the users or moderators at all. It's the ridiculous set of rules that are the biggest turnoff for newcomers to this site (though the messengers, the mods, often do get shot :P) ... It's extremely dangerous, almost ARROGANT, for a relatively new, barely established, up and coming game to take the stance of "these are our forums, these are our rules, if you don't like it, don't post here" ...
these rules are simply an enormous turnoff to many harmful and harmless users alike. I'll post within the rules if I want to post here, of course, but I'm just saying that not taking any constructive criticism on the rules whatsoever (especially when so so many people have problems with them) is a death wish for a game like this ... What makes what works perfectly on other forums somehow not nearly good enough for these forums?
The Admins of this forum did not make up the rules, these are basically the exact same set of rules that many other vBulletin forums use such as the Steam Forum Rules (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=651173). The reason these forums might seem more policed to you than other ones you've been on is exactly what you said, that Altitude at the moment is an independent game with a smallish but loyal following. The Steam Forums have something like 200 moderators for 200,000 members. As such, the Mods aren't able to read everything on those forums without spending tons of time doing so. I'd venture to guess that on those forums most Mods only look at reported posts. On these forums, however, there are about four active mods for the 600 or so active posters that contribute. Because this is a small community, we are able to read almost everything and because of that you might get the feel that the rules are a bit stricter than other places. I personally don't think our rules are stricter than everywhere else, just that they are actually more likely to be enforced!
Evan20000
01-08-2010, 07:03 PM
So now that this is cleared up, we can be a big happy family again.
Flyngbanana
01-08-2010, 07:15 PM
I've never had a problem with the mods at all. I have no cause for complaint about them.
To those who get infractions, if you do get one, be less open about the issue in future. Innuendo and subtle wordplay work wonders.
And if all else fails add a smiley face to the post to show you're joking around and that your post isn't infraction worthy. :D
To those who get infractions, if you do get one, be less open about the issue in future. Innuendo and subtle wordplay work wonders.
And if all else fails add a smiley face to the post to show you're joking around and that your post isn't infraction worthy. :D
-MH-CaptainVogez
01-09-2010, 12:22 AM
I've never had a problem with the mods at all. I have no cause for complaint about them.
To those who get infractions, if you do get one, be less open about the issue in future. Innuendo and subtle wordplay work wonders.
And if all else fails add a smiley face to the post to show you're joking around and that your post isn't infraction worthy. :D
:D
I must say I have no personal problems at all and I think this was something that needed to be brought to the open - much like when a new couple would talk about...BABIES!
Nah but In a way since no personal attacks have been taken brutally by anyone, I suggest we draw this to a close as we all now accept some form of responsibility for what's happened previously.
Peace!
:D
To those who get infractions, if you do get one, be less open about the issue in future. Innuendo and subtle wordplay work wonders.
And if all else fails add a smiley face to the post to show you're joking around and that your post isn't infraction worthy. :D
:D
I must say I have no personal problems at all and I think this was something that needed to be brought to the open - much like when a new couple would talk about...BABIES!
Nah but In a way since no personal attacks have been taken brutally by anyone, I suggest we draw this to a close as we all now accept some form of responsibility for what's happened previously.
Peace!
:D
as red as black
01-10-2010, 03:09 AM
this thread is now about big red letters
[Y]
01-10-2010, 03:32 AM
then why are your letters black?
and u mean the same big red letters that got beagle one of his undeserved infractions?
ok then....INFRACTION PARTY!!!!!
edit: i wonder if arab is gonna get an infraction for his post or if he's popular enough with the mods that they'll let it slip
Mods, dont deny it. If a random noob commited the same "crime" as a well-liked member of the community, you'd look at their posts with a different point of view for each.
and u mean the same big red letters that got beagle one of his undeserved infractions?
ok then....INFRACTION PARTY!!!!!
edit: i wonder if arab is gonna get an infraction for his post or if he's popular enough with the mods that they'll let it slip
Mods, dont deny it. If a random noob commited the same "crime" as a well-liked member of the community, you'd look at their posts with a different point of view for each.
Ferret
01-10-2010, 05:59 AM
I did not edit your post
http://altitudegame.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19746&postcount=19
You'll find it says "Last edited by Kuja900; 12-10-2009 at 04:40 PM. " Or did you delete the thread later just to cover that up?
http://altitudegame.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19746&postcount=19
You'll find it says "Last edited by Kuja900; 12-10-2009 at 04:40 PM. " Or did you delete the thread later just to cover that up?
Kuja900
01-10-2010, 06:05 AM
I have no recollection of that edit its weird actually. Why would I go to that a thread a month later on "12-10-2009" after the thread had already been deleted and edit out that picture? The answer is I didn't. Every time you edit a post the "Last edited by xxxx" portion is highlighted, its not in that picture. I went back and checked to after you mentioned that I edited it because I have no memory of doing so and saw that and its been confusing me ever since.
CCN
01-10-2010, 06:07 AM
Ferret, he's what's right with the world.
If the world is a drunken cynical mess
(mhmmmm cheese)
If the world is a drunken cynical mess
(mhmmmm cheese)
Ferret
01-10-2010, 06:19 AM
I have no recollection of that edit its weird actually. Why would I go to that a thread a month later on "12-10-2009" after the thread had already been deleted and edit out that picture?
You know when it was deleted? Share that with me, because I'm pretty sure you deleted it after it was edited. Edited by you to hide a screen shot of your terrible score opposite me after your delusional claims, and now that the thread has been revived, it's pretty obvious for all to see. Was hiding a 7-9 score against me really worth totally abusing your power as a moderator?
You know when it was deleted? Share that with me, because I'm pretty sure you deleted it after it was edited. Edited by you to hide a screen shot of your terrible score opposite me after your delusional claims, and now that the thread has been revived, it's pretty obvious for all to see. Was hiding a 7-9 score against me really worth totally abusing your power as a moderator?
Kuja900
01-10-2010, 06:36 AM
You know when it was deleted? Share that with me, because I'm pretty sure you deleted it after it was edited. Edited by you to hide a screen shot of your terrible score opposite me after your delusional claims, and now that the thread has been revived, it's pretty obvious for all to see. Was hiding a 7-9 score against me really worth totally abusing your power as a moderator?
I had no hand in deleting some random pic you took of me messing around in a game and the fact that you took a pic of the one game where you had a decent score and I did not says a lot. The last post in that thread was on the 8th of November before its recent revival and it says I edited that I supposedly edited that post on the 10th of December which is completely illogical. It is some kind of error and neither myself nor any other mod here can see any past versions of that post. But despite all your accusations and insults I still love you Ferret, embrace me.
edit: that was probably the day I deleted that thread and I guess it said I edited the pic by extension, not sure.
I had no hand in deleting some random pic you took of me messing around in a game and the fact that you took a pic of the one game where you had a decent score and I did not says a lot. The last post in that thread was on the 8th of November before its recent revival and it says I edited that I supposedly edited that post on the 10th of December which is completely illogical. It is some kind of error and neither myself nor any other mod here can see any past versions of that post. But despite all your accusations and insults I still love you Ferret, embrace me.
edit: that was probably the day I deleted that thread and I guess it said I edited the pic by extension, not sure.
DiogenesDog
01-10-2010, 08:31 AM
;31428']Mods, dont deny it. If a random noob commited the same "crime" as a well-liked member of the community, you'd look at their posts with a different point of view for each.
Here's my personal leniency guideline:
1) New, obviously clueless members get almost complete leniency.
2) Genuinely funny posts get some leniency even when they break the rules.
3) Repeat offenders get judged more harshly than other posters.
Here's my personal leniency guideline:
1) New, obviously clueless members get almost complete leniency.
2) Genuinely funny posts get some leniency even when they break the rules.
3) Repeat offenders get judged more harshly than other posters.
Beagle
01-10-2010, 10:06 AM
Here's my personal leniency guideline:
1) New, obviously clueless members get almost complete leniency.
2) Genuinely funny posts get some leniency even when they break the rules.
3) Repeat offenders get judged more harshly than other posters.
The members most likely to break the rules do not have the rules applied to them, while those who have already punished rules will be punished for even more minor things in the future?
As a mod, I would've expected to educate the clueless members was one of my prime directives. And scrutinizing someone who has made a mistake even more closely in the future; well, thats a bit of an endless cycle, isn't it? More infractions beget more scrutiny beget more infractions for smaller things, which begets more scrutiny because they've repeated offenses endlessly now, and now you'll punish them for not crossing their t's, yes?
1) New, obviously clueless members get almost complete leniency.
2) Genuinely funny posts get some leniency even when they break the rules.
3) Repeat offenders get judged more harshly than other posters.
The members most likely to break the rules do not have the rules applied to them, while those who have already punished rules will be punished for even more minor things in the future?
As a mod, I would've expected to educate the clueless members was one of my prime directives. And scrutinizing someone who has made a mistake even more closely in the future; well, thats a bit of an endless cycle, isn't it? More infractions beget more scrutiny beget more infractions for smaller things, which begets more scrutiny because they've repeated offenses endlessly now, and now you'll punish them for not crossing their t's, yes?
DiogenesDog
01-10-2010, 01:56 PM
Well, I like to give people a chance to learn the rules before banning them. But if someone has been repeatedly warned and still keeps screwing up, then they clearly know better and there's no reason to put up with that kind of nonsense.
But yes, you've stated time and again that you don't care if the community grows and that you consider yourself better than the common rabble. Thanks for the input.
But yes, you've stated time and again that you don't care if the community grows and that you consider yourself better than the common rabble. Thanks for the input.
Beagle
01-10-2010, 06:31 PM
Actually, if you weren't just looking for excuses to snap at me, I was suggesting it'd be nicer to explain the rules to new users instead of ignoring them.
Aggressive, aren't we? I thought we were all a happy family again.
Aggressive, aren't we? I thought we were all a happy family again.
mikesol
01-10-2010, 06:50 PM
But yes, you've stated time and again that you don't care if the community grows and that you consider yourself better than the common rabble. Thanks for the input.
It's comments like those that make people question moderators on these forums. Yes, moderators are humans and get angry like anyone else. However, moderators are supposed to be mature enough to overcome these emotions and judge the content fairly rather than just being like "I hate you so I'm gonna infract you." When moderators get into the same stupid fights or make hostile comments it creates an aura of "well since I'm a mod I can do whatever I want." That's not an aura that helps the community grow.
Sure Beagle might annoy you - you might hate Beagle - but posting things like that does not help the situation at all.
It's comments like those that make people question moderators on these forums. Yes, moderators are humans and get angry like anyone else. However, moderators are supposed to be mature enough to overcome these emotions and judge the content fairly rather than just being like "I hate you so I'm gonna infract you." When moderators get into the same stupid fights or make hostile comments it creates an aura of "well since I'm a mod I can do whatever I want." That's not an aura that helps the community grow.
Sure Beagle might annoy you - you might hate Beagle - but posting things like that does not help the situation at all.
Pieface
01-10-2010, 07:05 PM
On a more positive note, we've discussed about ways to improve the infraction process and have come to the conclusion that one of the problems is that getting an infraction for "Violation of Terms and Rules" doesn't tell you much about what you actually did wrong. The point of infractions is supposed to be to make the person getting them aware of exactly what went wrong and how they could do better in the future. If the warning or infraction is unclear and the user doesn't know what they've done wrong, then the whole system is pointless because the person can't be expected to behave differently the next time.
From now on we're going to try to include the exact rule violated in the automatic PM that gets sent out so that it is clear to the person receiving one exactly what they did wrong and how they can improve in the future.
Hopefully this will make the infraction system more transparent as a whole, but as always we welcome suggestions as to how the process could be made better for everyone.
From now on we're going to try to include the exact rule violated in the automatic PM that gets sent out so that it is clear to the person receiving one exactly what they did wrong and how they can improve in the future.
Hopefully this will make the infraction system more transparent as a whole, but as always we welcome suggestions as to how the process could be made better for everyone.
nesnl
01-10-2010, 08:16 PM
Actually, if you weren't just looking for excuses to snap at me, I was suggesting it'd be nicer to explain the rules to new users instead of ignoring them.
Aggressive, aren't we? I thought we were all a happy family again.
There is an outline of the Forum Rules and Guidelines posted for everyone to see. As a new user to any forum you are expected to read and understand those rules before posting. So I am not sure what you mean when you said we should explain the rules to new users as it is explicitly outlined for all to read.
Aggressive, aren't we? I thought we were all a happy family again.
There is an outline of the Forum Rules and Guidelines posted for everyone to see. As a new user to any forum you are expected to read and understand those rules before posting. So I am not sure what you mean when you said we should explain the rules to new users as it is explicitly outlined for all to read.
CCN
01-10-2010, 08:21 PM
There is an outline of the Forum Rules and Guidelines posted for everyone to see. As a new user to any forum you are expected to read and understand those rules before posting. So I am not sure what you mean when you said we should explain the rules to new users as it is explicitly outlined for all to read.
This post just blows my mind.
Reading this, then Dio's post and Beagle's in the middle.
D= Dio B= Beags N = Maims
D: I give extreme leniency to new members
B: Maybe better to educate then give them a free pass
N: They should know the rules due to the sticky (quoting B for some reason)
So N and D disagree, but instead of N quoting D, instead quotes Beagle who is trying to argue in the direction of N's position.
I can't make heads nor tails of this exchange.
This post just blows my mind.
Reading this, then Dio's post and Beagle's in the middle.
D= Dio B= Beags N = Maims
D: I give extreme leniency to new members
B: Maybe better to educate then give them a free pass
N: They should know the rules due to the sticky (quoting B for some reason)
So N and D disagree, but instead of N quoting D, instead quotes Beagle who is trying to argue in the direction of N's position.
I can't make heads nor tails of this exchange.
nesnl
01-10-2010, 08:29 PM
This post just blows my mind.
Reading this, then Dio's post and Beagle's in the middle.
D= Dio B= Beags N = Maims
D: I give extreme leniency to new members
B: Maybe better to educate then give them a free pass
N: They should know the rules due to the sticky (quoting B for some reason)
So N and D disagree, but instead of N quoting D, instead quotes Beagle who is trying to argue in the direction of N's position.
I can't make heads nor tails of this exchange.
Again, you fail to factor in the human element. However, I think I remember you being foreign and maybe you don't fully comprehend the things that everyone is saying and if that's the case I can't really hold it against you. Either way, I think you need to understand that there is no exact science to all of this. If there was then a computer would just calculate infractions and we wouldn't have to do it. The reason that Dio says he is more lenient to new members is because even though there are explicit rules, their implementation and enforcement is obviously open to interpretation. This is why someone ends up being lenient to new members, not because they failed to read the rules, because that is not an excuse for any one, it is because they maybe failed to fully understand how those rules are enforced. In Beagle's case he really has no excuse for breaking the rules except he keeps trying to play the whole "can someone explain the rules to me" card.
Anyway, I think to most people on the forums this all made sense and if you are foreign CCN and need further clarification just feel free to PM me and I can try to make sure it's explained well enough to understand.
Reading this, then Dio's post and Beagle's in the middle.
D= Dio B= Beags N = Maims
D: I give extreme leniency to new members
B: Maybe better to educate then give them a free pass
N: They should know the rules due to the sticky (quoting B for some reason)
So N and D disagree, but instead of N quoting D, instead quotes Beagle who is trying to argue in the direction of N's position.
I can't make heads nor tails of this exchange.
Again, you fail to factor in the human element. However, I think I remember you being foreign and maybe you don't fully comprehend the things that everyone is saying and if that's the case I can't really hold it against you. Either way, I think you need to understand that there is no exact science to all of this. If there was then a computer would just calculate infractions and we wouldn't have to do it. The reason that Dio says he is more lenient to new members is because even though there are explicit rules, their implementation and enforcement is obviously open to interpretation. This is why someone ends up being lenient to new members, not because they failed to read the rules, because that is not an excuse for any one, it is because they maybe failed to fully understand how those rules are enforced. In Beagle's case he really has no excuse for breaking the rules except he keeps trying to play the whole "can someone explain the rules to me" card.
Anyway, I think to most people on the forums this all made sense and if you are foreign CCN and need further clarification just feel free to PM me and I can try to make sure it's explained well enough to understand.
Vi*
01-10-2010, 09:19 PM
I think people are confused as to what leniency means. We don't mean that moderators ignore a bad post by a new person, we mean that we'll give a yellow card instead of red card. That way the new users have a chance to make some mistakes and still learn the rules. Do you think we should always give reds and never be lenient, because it lets users develop bad habits?
CCN
01-11-2010, 12:02 AM
Its cool, English is my first language.
I was merely pointing out what appeared to me as snapping at Beag's for no reason.
E.g.
When you contradicted Beagle on
Beagle "if you weren't just looking for excuses to snap at me, I was suggesting it'd be nicer to explain the rules to new users instead of ignoring them."
For example
Maimer "new user to any forum you are expected to read and understand those rules before posting"
but then "clarified"in the new post:
Maimer "they maybe failed to fully understand how those rules are enforce"
or again
Maimer "So I am not sure what you mean when you said we should explain the rules to new users as it is explicitly outlined for all to read.
and
Maimer "their implementation and enforcement is obviously open to interpretation"
you really did know what she was talking about - in the sense that you said so in your next post.
Given the tone and style of your posts here it's obvious there has been no room to change your mind and at this point I don't see this thread changing mine. I guess sometimes I can't resist banging my head against a brick wall, but i'll sure try to stop after this post. I'm learning the difference between small and large communities so good luck to me changing my habits and staying out of this thread.
TL: DR:
Seemed like an excuse to snap at Beagle. /end thread for me.
I was merely pointing out what appeared to me as snapping at Beag's for no reason.
E.g.
When you contradicted Beagle on
Beagle "if you weren't just looking for excuses to snap at me, I was suggesting it'd be nicer to explain the rules to new users instead of ignoring them."
For example
Maimer "new user to any forum you are expected to read and understand those rules before posting"
but then "clarified"in the new post:
Maimer "they maybe failed to fully understand how those rules are enforce"
or again
Maimer "So I am not sure what you mean when you said we should explain the rules to new users as it is explicitly outlined for all to read.
and
Maimer "their implementation and enforcement is obviously open to interpretation"
you really did know what she was talking about - in the sense that you said so in your next post.
Given the tone and style of your posts here it's obvious there has been no room to change your mind and at this point I don't see this thread changing mine. I guess sometimes I can't resist banging my head against a brick wall, but i'll sure try to stop after this post. I'm learning the difference between small and large communities so good luck to me changing my habits and staying out of this thread.
TL: DR:
Seemed like an excuse to snap at Beagle. /end thread for me.
Beagle
01-11-2010, 12:32 AM
In Beagle's case he really has no excuse for breaking the rules except he keeps trying to play the whole "can someone explain the rules to me" card.
I'm not trying to play any card, I was asking about the random picture thing. I'm sure you understand that when I got that infraction, it made me question the rules.
If being an older user means I should employ common sense as to whats expected on a forum - well, I do, and I still get in trouble for it, which is why I ask how the rules work here, because as you're constantly reminding us there is a human factor, and different mods have different interpretations.
So it'd be nice if you'd stop talking down to me like some kind of mischevious troll caught playing up, unless this sounds like I'm playing a sympathy card. Thanks!
And yes, I'd agree with CCN, I'd like to see this thread come to a close too. Nothing but ill will now.
I'm not trying to play any card, I was asking about the random picture thing. I'm sure you understand that when I got that infraction, it made me question the rules.
If being an older user means I should employ common sense as to whats expected on a forum - well, I do, and I still get in trouble for it, which is why I ask how the rules work here, because as you're constantly reminding us there is a human factor, and different mods have different interpretations.
So it'd be nice if you'd stop talking down to me like some kind of mischevious troll caught playing up, unless this sounds like I'm playing a sympathy card. Thanks!
And yes, I'd agree with CCN, I'd like to see this thread come to a close too. Nothing but ill will now.
CCN
01-11-2010, 12:38 AM
I'm not trying to play any card, I was asking about the random picture thing. I'm sure you understand that when I got that infraction, it made me question the rules.
If being an older user means I should employ common sense as to whats expected on a forum - well, I do, and I still get in trouble for it, which is why I ask how the rules work here, because as you're constantly reminding us there is a human factor, and different mods have different interpretations.
So it'd be nice if you'd stop
talking down, to me like some kind of mischevious troll caught playing up unless this sounds like I'm playing a sympathy card. Thanks!
And yes, I'd agree with CCN, I'd like to see this thread come to a close too. Nothing but ill will now.
To be fair I don't think thats going to happen, it seems to be his general writing style. An adult teaches a kid. If someone is talking in the Adult-Kid mold while being the "Adult" trying to teach or debate them is useless.
If being an older user means I should employ common sense as to whats expected on a forum - well, I do, and I still get in trouble for it, which is why I ask how the rules work here, because as you're constantly reminding us there is a human factor, and different mods have different interpretations.
So it'd be nice if you'd stop
talking down, to me like some kind of mischevious troll caught playing up unless this sounds like I'm playing a sympathy card. Thanks!
And yes, I'd agree with CCN, I'd like to see this thread come to a close too. Nothing but ill will now.
To be fair I don't think thats going to happen, it seems to be his general writing style. An adult teaches a kid. If someone is talking in the Adult-Kid mold while being the "Adult" trying to teach or debate them is useless.
Kuja900
01-11-2010, 12:49 AM
OP requesting this thread closed, its done.
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