Zombi
12-31-2009, 04:53 PM
I have a few days getting into this forum and have read a lot of crap about the Bomber and I dont really understand the reason. Playing nicely with the Bomber is much easier than with Miranda or Biplane, that's for sure, but It requires more skill than the Noobpy by far (spam, spam, spam and your tracking will do the rest) and almost no one criticizes the users of that plane
...And yeah, bombs are annoying and lame as Hell but What's the problem with Flak bombers like me?
P.s. Please excuse my terrible English
...And yeah, bombs are annoying and lame as Hell but What's the problem with Flak bombers like me?
P.s. Please excuse my terrible English
Varonth
12-31-2009, 05:30 PM
I'm criticizing the loopy in almost every round...
I've played laser randa the past weeks, and since yesterday I'm switching to doublefire loopy sometimes, just to show how ridiculous the damage is.
It's fast, it's agile and it got one of the highest DPS ingame.
And it isn't even the most fragile ship.
Balancewise the loopy, and especially the doublefire loopy is out of control, and you can see it on almost every server... 80%+ loopies are just common, and almost every loopy is a dualfire one.
Then there are some acid, which aren't better (oh come on, +33% dmg if you have acid on you... isn't the dmg it does itself enough) anyway, and some guest with tracker.
And on top of that they get autoaim.
To fix this, they actually have to nerf dualfire by ~33% to ~40 dmg per shot, and single by ~25% to ~30 dmg per shot.
Bomber aren't close to be that annoying.
I've played laser randa the past weeks, and since yesterday I'm switching to doublefire loopy sometimes, just to show how ridiculous the damage is.
It's fast, it's agile and it got one of the highest DPS ingame.
And it isn't even the most fragile ship.
Balancewise the loopy, and especially the doublefire loopy is out of control, and you can see it on almost every server... 80%+ loopies are just common, and almost every loopy is a dualfire one.
Then there are some acid, which aren't better (oh come on, +33% dmg if you have acid on you... isn't the dmg it does itself enough) anyway, and some guest with tracker.
And on top of that they get autoaim.
To fix this, they actually have to nerf dualfire by ~33% to ~40 dmg per shot, and single by ~25% to ~30 dmg per shot.
Bomber aren't close to be that annoying.
combat
12-31-2009, 05:38 PM
False, Loopy has gotten nerfs in the past already. And really, most of the balancing work won't be in either of those planes.
Varonth
12-31-2009, 05:43 PM
False, Loopy has gotten nerfs in the past already. And really, most of the balancing work won't be in either of those planes.
Could be, but it wasn't enough.
Could be, but it wasn't enough.
mled
12-31-2009, 06:05 PM
I agree with zombi lately people have really been pissing me off when i play bomber im good period i consider myself in the top 5 players of all alti for the bomber plane and in the game when i play it people always say "spam kill" and "what a noob" and even "what a pusy" these are starting to be insults i can kill people without randomly shooting thats the beuty of bomber and people who say it a "gay" those people cant play it
if i see a person going to base to heal i no how fast hes going and where i have to aim to kill him playing the bomber ive built an acute sense of planes speen and bomber nade speed and i can aim to kill that person
and what does he say SPAM KILL WHAT A NOOB!
this is what grinds my gears :D
if i see a person going to base to heal i no how fast hes going and where i have to aim to kill him playing the bomber ive built an acute sense of planes speen and bomber nade speed and i can aim to kill that person
and what does he say SPAM KILL WHAT A NOOB!
this is what grinds my gears :D
eth
12-31-2009, 06:09 PM
Bomber is gay.
Does this make me a noob?
Does this make me a noob?
AtomikPi
12-31-2009, 06:12 PM
I agree with zombi lately people have really been pissing me off when i play bomber im good period i consider myself in the top 5 players of all alti for the bomber plane and in the game when i play it people always say "spam kill" and "what a noob" and even "what a pusy" these are starting to be insults i can kill people without randomly shooting thats the beuty of bomber and people who say it a "gay" those people cant play it
if i see a person going to base to heal i no how fast hes going and where i have to aim to kill him playing the bomber ive built an acute sense of planes speen and bomber nade speed and i can aim to kill that person
and what does he say SPAM KILL WHAT A NOOB!
this is what grinds my gears :D
There's a very simple solution - learn to play a plane with a higher skill ceiling if you care that much about what people think. If you don't, then stick to bomber.
if i see a person going to base to heal i no how fast hes going and where i have to aim to kill him playing the bomber ive built an acute sense of planes speen and bomber nade speed and i can aim to kill that person
and what does he say SPAM KILL WHAT A NOOB!
this is what grinds my gears :D
There's a very simple solution - learn to play a plane with a higher skill ceiling if you care that much about what people think. If you don't, then stick to bomber.
mled
12-31-2009, 06:19 PM
Bomber is gay.
Does this make me a noob?
? really i mean really ?
i said that people call use noob we dont call people noobs that call bomber player noobs plz understand before u post
Does this make me a noob?
? really i mean really ?
i said that people call use noob we dont call people noobs that call bomber player noobs plz understand before u post
mled
12-31-2009, 06:21 PM
There's a very simple solution - learn to play a plane with a higher skill ceiling if you care that much about what people think. If you don't, then stick to bomber.
i dont care that much what people call me but its evolved to not saying ur a noob but to insult and thats what pissing me of u wouldnt like it if i called u a huge fukin pusy becuse u shoot with miranda and run
(i wouldent say that its just an example)
i dont care that much what people call me but its evolved to not saying ur a noob but to insult and thats what pissing me of u wouldnt like it if i called u a huge fukin pusy becuse u shoot with miranda and run
(i wouldent say that its just an example)
DMCM
12-31-2009, 06:48 PM
Problem is the 3 grenades deal enough damage to kill any plane and they all follow the same trajectory so it's easy to spam the 3 grenades either to a choke or to a common trajectory and get a kill. Combine that with a huge radius (so big that grenades often hit shields and still kill you) and you got a superb weapon. Also, they got a big knockback so sometimes when you're bomb running, for example, in the top path in tbd_cave grenades that hit you will almost certainly make you hit the rocks, or if your throttle is low they can even make you stall.
Of course it all depends what planes you're using. Explodets hate laser, biplanes hate EMP, etc. And I'd rather see remote and trickster/time anchor nerfed or just changed.
Of course it all depends what planes you're using. Explodets hate laser, biplanes hate EMP, etc. And I'd rather see remote and trickster/time anchor nerfed or just changed.
mled
12-31-2009, 07:02 PM
Problem is the 3 grenades deal enough damage to kill any plane and they all follow the same trajectory so it's easy to spam the 3 grenades either to a choke or to a common trajectory and get a kill. Combine that with a huge radius (so big that grenades often hit shields and still kill you) and you got a superb weapon. Also, they got a big knockback so sometimes when you're bomb running, for example, in the top path in tbd_cave grenades that hit you will almost certainly make you hit the rocks, or if your throttle is low they can even make you stall.
Of course it all depends what planes you're using. Explodets hate laser, biplanes hate EMP, etc. And I'd rather see remote and trickster/time anchor nerfed or just changed.
i no bombers a little over powered but miranda can do that shoot zap threw a plane thing and it also kills bi loopys and bomber without heavy hull and even miranda that is also overpowered and thats not what i was taking about i was saying that its unnecessary for players to call other players names just becuse of the plane they use
Of course it all depends what planes you're using. Explodets hate laser, biplanes hate EMP, etc. And I'd rather see remote and trickster/time anchor nerfed or just changed.
i no bombers a little over powered but miranda can do that shoot zap threw a plane thing and it also kills bi loopys and bomber without heavy hull and even miranda that is also overpowered and thats not what i was taking about i was saying that its unnecessary for players to call other players names just becuse of the plane they use
CCN
12-31-2009, 07:16 PM
i no bombers a little over powered but miranda can do that shoot zap threw a plane thing and it also kills bi loopys and bomber without heavy hull and even miranda that is also overpowered and thats not what i was taking about i was saying that its unnecessary for players to call other players names just becuse of the plane they use
Fup On Miranda kills mirands and loopy w/o heavy armour only.
Fup On Miranda kills mirands and loopy w/o heavy armour only.
mled
12-31-2009, 07:19 PM
u no what il stop this is starting to turn into a huge argument and who evers a dik il just mute them so can we settle our diffrances?
mikesol
12-31-2009, 07:38 PM
The problem with bomber is similar to that of the loopy - it's annoying while playing with nubs but in any pro game it's not bad because the players actually have skill. I mean look at eth with the loopy. Do you honestly think all he does is point off screen and press f then fly away? Or how about Tyr with bomber? Sure he "Spams" at times but it's intelligent spam and not just flying in circles next to a choke point.
Bomber and loopy are planes that don't require much skill to kill people with and that's why many newer players love them.
When I started off this game I played solely bomber. Some people would be like "Mike's awesome - definitely one of the best bombers." Other people would be like "lol noob spammer." Now, I admit, starting off I just circled around choke points and pressed f and whatnot which takes no skill other than the ability to aim through a gigantic hole. Since then, I have learned more about what the bomber is actually used for and don't just sit back in my base spamming all the time.
Many of the bombers I've seen on the servers do just that. They would rather stay behind and keep their trip gold bars than try to advance on the enemy base and do anything or support their team. They play the pretense of "defense" when really they just want to ratio whore and kill things easily. People like to fool themselves into thinking they're super great because they can fly in circles and press f and then run away and press d. I got a 50 kill streak with the bomber the other day goofing off and doing nothing but flying around spamming.
This is especially troublesome for players who play planes that require much more skill to get the hang of such as randa or biplane. I can't envision a biplane ever getting a 50 kill streak.
Anywho, my advice is to realize that the bomber can be a noob plane like the loopy and accept that fact. I don't know any of you well enough to judge if you're more than a plane that just spams at chokes but if you are then don't worry about what people say. Spam is part of the game and, if used correctly like Tyr does, can be an actual asset to your team.
Bomber and loopy are planes that don't require much skill to kill people with and that's why many newer players love them.
When I started off this game I played solely bomber. Some people would be like "Mike's awesome - definitely one of the best bombers." Other people would be like "lol noob spammer." Now, I admit, starting off I just circled around choke points and pressed f and whatnot which takes no skill other than the ability to aim through a gigantic hole. Since then, I have learned more about what the bomber is actually used for and don't just sit back in my base spamming all the time.
Many of the bombers I've seen on the servers do just that. They would rather stay behind and keep their trip gold bars than try to advance on the enemy base and do anything or support their team. They play the pretense of "defense" when really they just want to ratio whore and kill things easily. People like to fool themselves into thinking they're super great because they can fly in circles and press f and then run away and press d. I got a 50 kill streak with the bomber the other day goofing off and doing nothing but flying around spamming.
This is especially troublesome for players who play planes that require much more skill to get the hang of such as randa or biplane. I can't envision a biplane ever getting a 50 kill streak.
Anywho, my advice is to realize that the bomber can be a noob plane like the loopy and accept that fact. I don't know any of you well enough to judge if you're more than a plane that just spams at chokes but if you are then don't worry about what people say. Spam is part of the game and, if used correctly like Tyr does, can be an actual asset to your team.
Kuja900
12-31-2009, 08:04 PM
Loopy is not in the same boat as bomber. Bomber is by far the least popular plane and that is because of its low skill ceiling. I am not saying that bomber is overpowered, im just saying that a player who has played for 2 months can have equal success to a player who has played diligently for three times that long. Their is just little room for skilled players to innovate on the plane and to me thats a problem. I have no problem calling bomber the "easy" plane as that is an accurate statement. Being good at bomber is barely respectable because it requires so little effort.
Ferret
12-31-2009, 08:25 PM
Spam is part of the game
Agreed. Please fix.
Agreed. Please fix.
Mei Mei
12-31-2009, 08:42 PM
Loopy is not in the same boat as bomber. Bomber is by far the least popular plane and that is because of its low skill ceiling. I am not saying that bomber is overpowered, im just saying that a player who has played for 2 months can have equal success to a player who has played diligently for three times that long. Their is just little room for skilled players to innovate on the plane and to me thats a problem. I have no problem calling bomber the "easy" plane as that is an accurate statement. Being good at bomber is barely respectable because it requires so little effort.
It this was true then I had a HW server to play on.
People pick the easiest things they can "pwn others" with. Period. And loopy is one of them (but it doesn't really matter since loopy double fire spammers are no match for experienced players).
It this was true then I had a HW server to play on.
People pick the easiest things they can "pwn others" with. Period. And loopy is one of them (but it doesn't really matter since loopy double fire spammers are no match for experienced players).
RockChurch
12-31-2009, 09:27 PM
All is fair in love an war.
Did the French and Brits in WWI really think that the Boche shouldn't have been easily slaughtering them by the hundreds with their cross-firing machine guns?
What about the Allies in WWII, did they complain that Flack gunners were 'spamming' the air getting skill-less kills?
No.
Your job is to win the game. You do whatever you can to win. You expect your opponents to do the same, and your job is to counter their strategies.
If your opponent is killing you and your team, you can't begrudge that. They are doing their best. Do your job and find a way to shred their strategy.
If some of the behaviour being complained about does not actually help them to win, then I have to ask: Why would you want them to change?
RockChurch
Did the French and Brits in WWI really think that the Boche shouldn't have been easily slaughtering them by the hundreds with their cross-firing machine guns?
What about the Allies in WWII, did they complain that Flack gunners were 'spamming' the air getting skill-less kills?
No.
Your job is to win the game. You do whatever you can to win. You expect your opponents to do the same, and your job is to counter their strategies.
If your opponent is killing you and your team, you can't begrudge that. They are doing their best. Do your job and find a way to shred their strategy.
If some of the behaviour being complained about does not actually help them to win, then I have to ask: Why would you want them to change?
RockChurch
Mei Mei
12-31-2009, 09:38 PM
Maybe because this is a multiplayer game and if everyone picked up the cheapest strategy it would quickly become unplayable and annoying. And such things get old fast.
duck
12-31-2009, 10:12 PM
All is fair in love an war.
Did the French and Brits in WWI really think that the Boche shouldn't have been easily slaughtering them by the hundreds with their cross-firing machine guns?
What about the Allies in WWII, did they complain that Flack gunners were 'spamming' the air getting skill-less kills?
No.
Your job is to win the game. You do whatever you can to win. You expect your opponents to do the same, and your job is to counter their strategies.
If your opponent is killing you and your team, you can't begrudge that. They are doing their best. Do your job and find a way to shred their strategy.
If some of the behaviour being complained about does not actually help them to win, then I have to ask: Why would you want them to change?
RockChurch
http://funkyimg.com/u2/362/007/comic_GIF.gif
Did the French and Brits in WWI really think that the Boche shouldn't have been easily slaughtering them by the hundreds with their cross-firing machine guns?
What about the Allies in WWII, did they complain that Flack gunners were 'spamming' the air getting skill-less kills?
No.
Your job is to win the game. You do whatever you can to win. You expect your opponents to do the same, and your job is to counter their strategies.
If your opponent is killing you and your team, you can't begrudge that. They are doing their best. Do your job and find a way to shred their strategy.
If some of the behaviour being complained about does not actually help them to win, then I have to ask: Why would you want them to change?
RockChurch
http://funkyimg.com/u2/362/007/comic_GIF.gif
AtomikPi
12-31-2009, 10:47 PM
All is fair in love an war.
Altitude is a game. :rolleyes:
Balance matters, and changing strategies probably won't be sufficient to counter imbalances unless those imbalances are sufficiently small.
Altitude is a game. :rolleyes:
Balance matters, and changing strategies probably won't be sufficient to counter imbalances unless those imbalances are sufficiently small.
Evan20000
12-31-2009, 10:49 PM
The randa hate is back!
*Runs to panic room*
*Runs to panic room*
RockChurch
12-31-2009, 11:35 PM
Altitude is a game. :rolleyes:
Balance matters, and changing strategies probably won't be sufficient to counter imbalances unless those imbalances are sufficiently small.
I didn't know that Bombers are dominating the game. Is this true? Are there no strategies which can counter the Bomber tactics being complained about?
Balance matters, and changing strategies probably won't be sufficient to counter imbalances unless those imbalances are sufficiently small.
I didn't know that Bombers are dominating the game. Is this true? Are there no strategies which can counter the Bomber tactics being complained about?
[FN]MONXY FIST
01-01-2010, 12:04 AM
I laugh at people who compare war to video games.
RockChurch
01-01-2010, 12:10 AM
MONXY FIST;29700']I laugh at people who compare war to video games.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy
AtomikPi
01-01-2010, 12:24 AM
I didn't know that Bombers are dominating the game. Is this true? Are there no strategies which can counter the Bomber tactics being complained about?
My statement was a generic response to all minor imbalance complaints, and your failed quote. IMO, bomber is roughly balanced although dumb bombs need to be buffed or replaced.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy
Except your analogy fails. Video games are for fun; wars are for resolving issues that countries cannot resolve in more diplomatic methods.
Video games replicate the fun aspects of war by removing the death. Video games are designed to be fun and altitude does not even attempt to be realistic.
My statement was a generic response to all minor imbalance complaints, and your failed quote. IMO, bomber is roughly balanced although dumb bombs need to be buffed or replaced.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy
Except your analogy fails. Video games are for fun; wars are for resolving issues that countries cannot resolve in more diplomatic methods.
Video games replicate the fun aspects of war by removing the death. Video games are designed to be fun and altitude does not even attempt to be realistic.
RockChurch
01-01-2010, 01:08 AM
Except your analogy fails. Video games are for fun; wars are for resolving issues that countries cannot resolve in more diplomatic methods.
Video games replicate the fun aspects of war by removing the death. Video games are designed to be fun and altitude does not even attempt to be realistic.
I think you missed the entire gist of the analogy. The issue is one of competition. The analogy could have been made with an example from business, chess (as was posted in the image above), sport, etc.
An inherent part of any competition is to do your best to win. Whether that's in war, video games, sport, or business, it's absurd to complain that the other player is using tactics (which are not against the rules) that help them win.
Suggesting they just *shouldn't* do those things, or otherwise shouldn't be allowed to do those things, because it makes it harder for you to win, is a bit silly.
Video games replicate the fun aspects of war by removing the death. Video games are designed to be fun and altitude does not even attempt to be realistic.
I think you missed the entire gist of the analogy. The issue is one of competition. The analogy could have been made with an example from business, chess (as was posted in the image above), sport, etc.
An inherent part of any competition is to do your best to win. Whether that's in war, video games, sport, or business, it's absurd to complain that the other player is using tactics (which are not against the rules) that help them win.
Suggesting they just *shouldn't* do those things, or otherwise shouldn't be allowed to do those things, because it makes it harder for you to win, is a bit silly.
ORYLY
01-01-2010, 01:53 AM
RockChurch is talking about Sirlin's Play to Win philosophy, which always gets mentioned at some point whenever there's a thread about easy or cheap strategies/fighting game characters/build orders/planes. Something should only be measured by its effectiveness in making you win the game. "Easy to use" or "boring" does not one game element (bomber) worse compared to another (biplane).
TomBRowkaH
01-01-2010, 02:25 AM
People always complain about stuff in every game. Every enjoyable game I've ever played has had small or sometimes even large imbalances. Often times these things are fixed temporarily, but then another imbalance is found and exploited. This is the mark of a good game.
As a player, the best thing you can do is to find ways to counter these imbalances to the best of your ability. Sometimes this even means learning to play the plane which you consider to be "cheap" so that you can gain a different perspective on it.
In the end, the obvious imbalances will probably be fixed, but some minor ones may go unfixed for a long time. In my experience, people who rage over imbalances will ultimately be less successful than those who learn to play with them.
P.S. I should mention of course that some imbalances or exploits could be so bad as to be considered cheating. One of example of this can be seen in Smash Bros Brawl, where the character Metaknight is often banned in tournament use because he is so powerful. Much of this problem comes from the fact that Nintendo never updates their games, so any imbalances with the original version will probably stick around for eternity. However, this is not the case at all with Altitude, and the developers are usually very quick to fix anything that becomes an alarming problem.
As a player, the best thing you can do is to find ways to counter these imbalances to the best of your ability. Sometimes this even means learning to play the plane which you consider to be "cheap" so that you can gain a different perspective on it.
In the end, the obvious imbalances will probably be fixed, but some minor ones may go unfixed for a long time. In my experience, people who rage over imbalances will ultimately be less successful than those who learn to play with them.
P.S. I should mention of course that some imbalances or exploits could be so bad as to be considered cheating. One of example of this can be seen in Smash Bros Brawl, where the character Metaknight is often banned in tournament use because he is so powerful. Much of this problem comes from the fact that Nintendo never updates their games, so any imbalances with the original version will probably stick around for eternity. However, this is not the case at all with Altitude, and the developers are usually very quick to fix anything that becomes an alarming problem.
Evan20000
01-01-2010, 02:28 AM
I love how well balanced altitude is compared to other more played games yet people still bitch about the minor things.
Altitude has no 1887s or Javelin Glitches, just a slightly (Key word) OP remote and a few UP, but still useable, perks.
Altitude has no 1887s or Javelin Glitches, just a slightly (Key word) OP remote and a few UP, but still useable, perks.
Snowsickle
01-01-2010, 02:42 AM
A lot of people have a hard time separating "imbalanced" and "not fun to play against" and often complain about one when they mean the other.
Bomber isn't the most popular plane in competitive play and it isn't likely to ever be there. That doesn't stop it from being a terrible experience for people playing against it. The bomber is one of a couple planes that excels in spamming shots offscreen and killing their opponent while their opponent gets little to no feedback as to where the shots originated and knows for certain that their opponent wasn't actually aiming for them. This isn't a fun game experience for the dying player and never will be. Say what you will about balance, but "fun to play against" needs to be a design consideration for every plane and several planes right now are more likely to induce a ragequit than a fun and challenging experience.
That said, the game is far from balanced in its current state. Even Sirlin concedes that there are situations where developer intervention is necessary. Generalized theories aren't going to account for every situation and seeing people offer "its fine l2p" instead of rational and well-informed debate on the problem at hand is rather depressing.
Bomber isn't the most popular plane in competitive play and it isn't likely to ever be there. That doesn't stop it from being a terrible experience for people playing against it. The bomber is one of a couple planes that excels in spamming shots offscreen and killing their opponent while their opponent gets little to no feedback as to where the shots originated and knows for certain that their opponent wasn't actually aiming for them. This isn't a fun game experience for the dying player and never will be. Say what you will about balance, but "fun to play against" needs to be a design consideration for every plane and several planes right now are more likely to induce a ragequit than a fun and challenging experience.
That said, the game is far from balanced in its current state. Even Sirlin concedes that there are situations where developer intervention is necessary. Generalized theories aren't going to account for every situation and seeing people offer "its fine l2p" instead of rational and well-informed debate on the problem at hand is rather depressing.
RockChurch
01-01-2010, 02:58 AM
Bomber isn't the most popular plane in competitive play and it isn't likely to ever be there. That doesn't stop it from being a terrible experience for people playing against it. The bomber is one of a couple planes that excels in spamming shots offscreen and killing their opponent while their opponent gets little to no feedback as to where the shots originated and knows for certain that their opponent wasn't actually aiming for them. This isn't a fun game experience for the dying player and never will be.
Dying is not fun. So what? You dislike dying when you can't see the guy? Don't play any FPS where you can be hit by a sniper, or run around a corner and into a trip-mine. Or, in Altitude, you can die by running into a set of mines just on the other side of the screen-wrap. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it any less fun for the guy leaving the mines or throwing the grenade. It certainly doesn't add to the game to reduce the variety of kills to the same few "true skilled kills".
Dying by turret fire is effectively no different from being killed by a Bomber through a choke-point. I don't think many players above level 20 can't figure out where there's a potential bomber likely to be lurking.
Part of good Altitude strategy is learning not to be too casual near certain choke-points or in certain areas. In my opinion that makes for a better game. If it's not fun for some players to learn this, that's too bad. It's not like this strategy is impossible to avoid.
Learn and move on, don't expect the other guy to stop killing you!
Dying is not fun. So what? You dislike dying when you can't see the guy? Don't play any FPS where you can be hit by a sniper, or run around a corner and into a trip-mine. Or, in Altitude, you can die by running into a set of mines just on the other side of the screen-wrap. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it any less fun for the guy leaving the mines or throwing the grenade. It certainly doesn't add to the game to reduce the variety of kills to the same few "true skilled kills".
Dying by turret fire is effectively no different from being killed by a Bomber through a choke-point. I don't think many players above level 20 can't figure out where there's a potential bomber likely to be lurking.
Part of good Altitude strategy is learning not to be too casual near certain choke-points or in certain areas. In my opinion that makes for a better game. If it's not fun for some players to learn this, that's too bad. It's not like this strategy is impossible to avoid.
Learn and move on, don't expect the other guy to stop killing you!
mled
01-01-2010, 03:14 AM
NOW i no that the bomber is a little nooby plane but what about the recoiless bi plane i believe thats the most overpowerd plane in the game its great long range (powerful) and when u come next to ANY plane you click F and D and hel kill that plane in 2 seconds with enough of his speed to take him away from the battle not only this u dont have to run u can pick up a bomb and since u fast agile and strong ul most likely succeed thats the best plane.
and stop saying the bomber spams alot because what about an explo he spins behind rocks and sht and just spams his rockets.
and stop saying the bomber spams alot because what about an explo he spins behind rocks and sht and just spams his rockets.
Smushface
01-01-2010, 04:13 AM
mled, I know your intentions are good and all, but believe me when I say that you're doing more harm than good for your cause. Let mikesol and others argue on your behalf.
Ferret
01-01-2010, 04:23 AM
Dying is not fun. So what? You dislike dying when you can't see the guy? Don't play any FPS where you can be hit by a sniper, or run around a corner and into a trip-mine. Or, in Altitude, you can die by running into a set of mines just on the other side of the screen-wrap. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it any less fun for the guy leaving the mines or throwing the grenade. It certainly doesn't add to the game to reduce the variety of kills to the same few "true skilled kills".
Dying by turret fire is effectively no different from being killed by a Bomber through a choke-point. I don't think many players above level 20 can't figure out where there's a potential bomber likely to be lurking.
Part of good Altitude strategy is learning not to be too casual near certain choke-points or in certain areas. In my opinion that makes for a better game. If it's not fun for some players to learn this, that's too bad. It's not like this strategy is impossible to avoid.
Learn and move on, don't expect the other guy to stop killing you!
You pretty much missed the point. It isn't "dying isn't fun," it's "dying when there is no indication of the presence of an enemy, no advance notice that you may come under attack, no chance to react no matter how good your reflexes, no chance to mitigate damage in any way, nothing to do no matter how optimal your positioning and speed may be when you know that the other guy didn't see you (because you'd have seen him) and therefor had no ability to hit you other than to know that people fly through this path and to shove grenades into an area that may contain them."
I've been playing versions of this game since 2003. I don't know where the bombers are. Please share your system with me.
NOW i no that the bomber is a little nooby plane but what about the recoiless bi plane i believe thats the most overpowerd plane in the game its great long range (powerful) and when u come next to ANY plane you click F and D and hel kill that plane in 2 seconds with enough of his speed to take him away from the battle not only this u dont have to run u can pick up a bomb and since u fast agile and strong ul most likely succeed thats the best plane.
and stop saying the bomber spams alot because what about an explo he spins behind rocks and sht and just spams his rockets.
The long range biplane gun is the least effective weapon in the game, there's math for this, and the machine gun requires you to basically enter melee range while maintaining enough energy to kill your target. There's a risk/reward ratio that you don't see with "spamming off screen infinitely." And the explodet requires manual detonation of rockets. Meaning if the explodet doesn't see you it doesn't time the explosion to hurt you. "Hurt you," not "instantly kill you."
Dying by turret fire is effectively no different from being killed by a Bomber through a choke-point. I don't think many players above level 20 can't figure out where there's a potential bomber likely to be lurking.
Part of good Altitude strategy is learning not to be too casual near certain choke-points or in certain areas. In my opinion that makes for a better game. If it's not fun for some players to learn this, that's too bad. It's not like this strategy is impossible to avoid.
Learn and move on, don't expect the other guy to stop killing you!
You pretty much missed the point. It isn't "dying isn't fun," it's "dying when there is no indication of the presence of an enemy, no advance notice that you may come under attack, no chance to react no matter how good your reflexes, no chance to mitigate damage in any way, nothing to do no matter how optimal your positioning and speed may be when you know that the other guy didn't see you (because you'd have seen him) and therefor had no ability to hit you other than to know that people fly through this path and to shove grenades into an area that may contain them."
I've been playing versions of this game since 2003. I don't know where the bombers are. Please share your system with me.
NOW i no that the bomber is a little nooby plane but what about the recoiless bi plane i believe thats the most overpowerd plane in the game its great long range (powerful) and when u come next to ANY plane you click F and D and hel kill that plane in 2 seconds with enough of his speed to take him away from the battle not only this u dont have to run u can pick up a bomb and since u fast agile and strong ul most likely succeed thats the best plane.
and stop saying the bomber spams alot because what about an explo he spins behind rocks and sht and just spams his rockets.
The long range biplane gun is the least effective weapon in the game, there's math for this, and the machine gun requires you to basically enter melee range while maintaining enough energy to kill your target. There's a risk/reward ratio that you don't see with "spamming off screen infinitely." And the explodet requires manual detonation of rockets. Meaning if the explodet doesn't see you it doesn't time the explosion to hurt you. "Hurt you," not "instantly kill you."
RockChurch
01-01-2010, 04:34 AM
You pretty much missed the point. It isn't "dying isn't fun," it's "dying when there is no indication of the presence of an enemy, no advance notice that you may come under attack, no chance to react no matter how good your reflexes, no chance to mitigate damage in any way, nothing to do no matter how optimal your positioning and speed may be when you know that the other guy didn't see you (because you'd have seen him) and therefor had no ability to hit you other than to know that people fly through this path and to shove grenades into an area that may contain them."
Actually I didn't miss that point, I replied directly to that point with other examples from this game and other genres. Almost every game has a way to ambush or snipe from an unseen vantage point. You think being blind-sided is not fun, ok, but don't think that it's not fun for the guy doing the blind-siding!
The argument that an action that is fun for the killer, but not for the victim, reduces the overall fun of the game is flawed.
Are these tactics creating an imbalance in the game? Are they somehow eliminating the other dogfighting in the game? If so, then perhaps there's a point. Though, I don't see a lack of dogfighting or other non-spam kills.
Right now there's a balanced variety of ways to kill other planes (I imagine bomber-spam accounts for a relatively low percentage of all kills). I think that's a good thing.
That you may have a preference of one or more kill methods over certain others only reinforces the point that each player has a personal preference and that variety is a good thing.
Actually I didn't miss that point, I replied directly to that point with other examples from this game and other genres. Almost every game has a way to ambush or snipe from an unseen vantage point. You think being blind-sided is not fun, ok, but don't think that it's not fun for the guy doing the blind-siding!
The argument that an action that is fun for the killer, but not for the victim, reduces the overall fun of the game is flawed.
Are these tactics creating an imbalance in the game? Are they somehow eliminating the other dogfighting in the game? If so, then perhaps there's a point. Though, I don't see a lack of dogfighting or other non-spam kills.
Right now there's a balanced variety of ways to kill other planes (I imagine bomber-spam accounts for a relatively low percentage of all kills). I think that's a good thing.
That you may have a preference of one or more kill methods over certain others only reinforces the point that each player has a personal preference and that variety is a good thing.
zwanglos
01-01-2010, 04:43 AM
I've been flying bomber recently because (A) there's no written guide in the forums, so I wanted to investigate everything about it for myself and (B) everyone says it sucks and/or gives if a lot of flak, but I want to investigate that for myself as well. If/when I decide bomber is lame, I'm probably gonna move back to recoilless bip or even sniplane (which is mucho fun).
Problem is the 3 grenades deal enough damage to kill any plane and they all follow the same trajectory so it's easy to spam the 3 grenades either to a choke or to a common trajectory and get a kill.
I'm pretty sure it takes 4 grenades to kill an explodet. Might also be the case against other bombers w/ heavy armor, but I'm not sure. 3 grenades for all the others, though.
Besides, it's not like every other gun in the game fires erratically and unpredictably... they all go in straight lines. You can dumbfire anything at a specific area and score damage/kills on anything traveling through (save for loopy, maybe, if the tracking missile somehow guides itself into a wall, but whatever).
My statement was a generic response to all minor imbalance complaints, and your failed quote. IMO, bomber is roughly balanced although dumb bombs need to be buffed or replaced.
I always thought it would have made more sense if the dumb bombs replaced the primary fire grenades, and not the tailgun. Dumb bombs + grenades seems redundant in most situations, and you can only fight back against what's behind you when you fly straight up.
What about the Allies in WWII, did they complain that Flack gunners were 'spamming' the air getting skill-less kills?
I remember hearing somewhere that there were British commanders who were rather upset when Rommel used Flak 88s as antitank weapons, as in the Battle of Arras. Might just be hearsay, though.
However, I'm surprised you could bring up such WWI/WWII analogies and completely ignore chemical gas, which was banned by the Versailles Treaty and the League of Nations after WWI. Chemical gas was further developed, to be sure, but not widely used during WWII (mainly looked down upon).
And terrorism is prohibited by the Geneva convention.
'Play to win' might work as a philosophy in video games, but I feel that it's a bit dodgy to make a full, broad comparison to war tactics. Despite the famous quote, not everything in war is fair.
i no bombers a little over powered but miranda can do that shoot zap threw a plane thing and it also kills bi loopys and bomber without heavy hull
I've been flying bomber w/ repair drone recently, and the charge shot + warp definitely does not kill in one hit. In fact, I find this 'randa tactic one of the easiest tactics to counter ... if you get just one grenade hit off on the miranda, wait for it to warp behind you and then lay down heavy fire from your suppressor tailgun. Poof, no more miranda. tbh, I find time anchor to be much more troublesome, as they are more likely to position themselves either directly below or above you.
Anyway, I think that saying 'bomber is lame because it spams' is a little ridiculous, because every plane can spam.
- Loopy spams tracking doublefire
- bomber can and does spam nades/bombs and/or suppressor tailgun
- explodet obviously spams proximity mines (when not using remote). And explodet users will dumb-fire rockets all the time and try to get a hit.
- mirandas (trickster/time anchor) can spam a bouncy shot through the same choke, and their fallback weapon is spamming uncharged shots like mad.
- biplane's cannon (not heavy cannon) has a range (and appearance) that is comparable to the suppressor machine gun. If you check tyr's recoilless bip guide, he lists spamming as a tactic:
Aim at a choke where enemies might come from, and press F. If there are indeed enemies there, they're either a) dead, or b) badly damaged, and you can finish them with your machinegun by closing in if they are on your side of the choke. Use long distance spam if you don't have anything else to do, or if you're approaching a choke you're going to cross and there's no enemy in sight. Since your shots can hit stuff off screen, it's worthwhile.
You can use all your energy bar spamming and it will recharge quickly enough to be full by the time you're at the choke."
Saying that 'bomber is lame because it can't do anything other than spam' might be a more valid argument, though, but that's because most bomber pilots just spam nades and nothing else, and once you make it past their favorite choke point they don't know how to defend themselves.
I think a lot of people get angry at bomber because they try to fight bomber like it's something else, and then ragequit when it doesn't work. It's really easy to arc nades onto you when you fly in a straight line, but if you're a little loopy moving around erratically, then it's harder to land a nade. And after three nades, bomber rate of fire decreases dramatically.
I dunno, maybe I'm just being hopeful, but part of me wants to believe that most people just haven't bothered figuring out more advanced tactics for bomber or more advanced counter-tactics against the bomber, and so all anyone sees is a grenade-spammer around a chokepoint.
Since then, I have learned more about what the bomber is actually used for and don't just sit back in my base spamming all the time.
This might sound ludicrous, but maybe you should write a bomber guide, then? Even the 'hold f plane' has its own guide... Maybe there would be a decrease in mindless nade spamming if people had some pro insight as to what else the bomber can be used for...
Problem is the 3 grenades deal enough damage to kill any plane and they all follow the same trajectory so it's easy to spam the 3 grenades either to a choke or to a common trajectory and get a kill.
I'm pretty sure it takes 4 grenades to kill an explodet. Might also be the case against other bombers w/ heavy armor, but I'm not sure. 3 grenades for all the others, though.
Besides, it's not like every other gun in the game fires erratically and unpredictably... they all go in straight lines. You can dumbfire anything at a specific area and score damage/kills on anything traveling through (save for loopy, maybe, if the tracking missile somehow guides itself into a wall, but whatever).
My statement was a generic response to all minor imbalance complaints, and your failed quote. IMO, bomber is roughly balanced although dumb bombs need to be buffed or replaced.
I always thought it would have made more sense if the dumb bombs replaced the primary fire grenades, and not the tailgun. Dumb bombs + grenades seems redundant in most situations, and you can only fight back against what's behind you when you fly straight up.
What about the Allies in WWII, did they complain that Flack gunners were 'spamming' the air getting skill-less kills?
I remember hearing somewhere that there were British commanders who were rather upset when Rommel used Flak 88s as antitank weapons, as in the Battle of Arras. Might just be hearsay, though.
However, I'm surprised you could bring up such WWI/WWII analogies and completely ignore chemical gas, which was banned by the Versailles Treaty and the League of Nations after WWI. Chemical gas was further developed, to be sure, but not widely used during WWII (mainly looked down upon).
And terrorism is prohibited by the Geneva convention.
'Play to win' might work as a philosophy in video games, but I feel that it's a bit dodgy to make a full, broad comparison to war tactics. Despite the famous quote, not everything in war is fair.
i no bombers a little over powered but miranda can do that shoot zap threw a plane thing and it also kills bi loopys and bomber without heavy hull
I've been flying bomber w/ repair drone recently, and the charge shot + warp definitely does not kill in one hit. In fact, I find this 'randa tactic one of the easiest tactics to counter ... if you get just one grenade hit off on the miranda, wait for it to warp behind you and then lay down heavy fire from your suppressor tailgun. Poof, no more miranda. tbh, I find time anchor to be much more troublesome, as they are more likely to position themselves either directly below or above you.
Anyway, I think that saying 'bomber is lame because it spams' is a little ridiculous, because every plane can spam.
- Loopy spams tracking doublefire
- bomber can and does spam nades/bombs and/or suppressor tailgun
- explodet obviously spams proximity mines (when not using remote). And explodet users will dumb-fire rockets all the time and try to get a hit.
- mirandas (trickster/time anchor) can spam a bouncy shot through the same choke, and their fallback weapon is spamming uncharged shots like mad.
- biplane's cannon (not heavy cannon) has a range (and appearance) that is comparable to the suppressor machine gun. If you check tyr's recoilless bip guide, he lists spamming as a tactic:
Aim at a choke where enemies might come from, and press F. If there are indeed enemies there, they're either a) dead, or b) badly damaged, and you can finish them with your machinegun by closing in if they are on your side of the choke. Use long distance spam if you don't have anything else to do, or if you're approaching a choke you're going to cross and there's no enemy in sight. Since your shots can hit stuff off screen, it's worthwhile.
You can use all your energy bar spamming and it will recharge quickly enough to be full by the time you're at the choke."
Saying that 'bomber is lame because it can't do anything other than spam' might be a more valid argument, though, but that's because most bomber pilots just spam nades and nothing else, and once you make it past their favorite choke point they don't know how to defend themselves.
I think a lot of people get angry at bomber because they try to fight bomber like it's something else, and then ragequit when it doesn't work. It's really easy to arc nades onto you when you fly in a straight line, but if you're a little loopy moving around erratically, then it's harder to land a nade. And after three nades, bomber rate of fire decreases dramatically.
I dunno, maybe I'm just being hopeful, but part of me wants to believe that most people just haven't bothered figuring out more advanced tactics for bomber or more advanced counter-tactics against the bomber, and so all anyone sees is a grenade-spammer around a chokepoint.
Since then, I have learned more about what the bomber is actually used for and don't just sit back in my base spamming all the time.
This might sound ludicrous, but maybe you should write a bomber guide, then? Even the 'hold f plane' has its own guide... Maybe there would be a decrease in mindless nade spamming if people had some pro insight as to what else the bomber can be used for...
zwanglos
01-01-2010, 04:46 AM
Anyway, bomber is better at spamming than other planes are, but I'm not (yet) certain that spamming is all it's good for.
ORYLY
01-01-2010, 04:47 AM
Completely hopeless insta-death to blind bomber spam sucks. But it's rare.
You're almost never completely hopeless. You have a general idea of where the spam will come based on the positions of the bomb/ball/other planes/previous spam. Playing the odds, by choosing a path where you're less likely to be hit, does count as a countermeasure. There will be an X% amount of times when the spammer gets lucky and hits you with all three blind grenades, but does this honestly happen often enough to make the game unfun?
You're almost never completely hopeless. You have a general idea of where the spam will come based on the positions of the bomb/ball/other planes/previous spam. Playing the odds, by choosing a path where you're less likely to be hit, does count as a countermeasure. There will be an X% amount of times when the spammer gets lucky and hits you with all three blind grenades, but does this honestly happen often enough to make the game unfun?
Snowsickle
01-01-2010, 04:47 AM
The argument that an action that is fun for the killer, but not for the victim, reduces the overall fun of the game is flawed.
Wrong, on the contrary every popular game out there tends to reward players that are both on the winning side and the side that isn't doing as well.
Let's say there are three valid possibilities: fun for the killer, fun for the victim, or fun for both. As a developer, which do you strive for? If you know that you can make the game fun for everyone, but are only making it fun for a select few (currently: the killer, with certain weapons), do you adjust your game to try to make it better for both parties?
Your sniper example is awful as well. If I get sniped in any FPS game, it is because there is an existing line of sight between us. I knew he was there and could react accordingly. If I get hit by 3 grenades moving at a velocity that leaves an insufficient amount of reaction time fired by a plane I could not possibly know is there, how is that in any way similar to this situation? It isn't.
Are these tactics creating an imbalance in the game? Are they somehow eliminating the other dogfighting in the game? If so, then perhaps there's a point. Though, I don't see a lack of dogfighting or other non-spam kills.
Right now there's a balanced variety of ways to kill other planes (I imagine bomber-spam accounts for a relatively low percentage of all kills). I think that's a good thing.
That you may have a preference of one or more kill methods over certain others only reinforces the point that each player has a personal preference and that variety is a good thing.
Some people, and I would guess a good number of the long-standing members of the community, desire a competitive game. Random situations (see: anything spam related) do not promote this type of gameplay. Every game that has a thriving competitive scene is, for the most part, not determined by random or skillless acts. There is a reason Counterstrike is one of the only competitive FPS games - if you can't aim you aren't going to do well. There is a reason starcraft is one of the best RTS games - all imbalances can be accounted for by either map makers or creative gameplay. This is not the case with altitude. I know Lamster desires a game that caters to both crowds. Your argument appears to be "some people like randomness, some people don't, so clearly we can't cater to the people who don't". My point from the beginning is that it is very possible to cater to both groups and you're talking from an excessively casual point of view.
Wrong, on the contrary every popular game out there tends to reward players that are both on the winning side and the side that isn't doing as well.
Let's say there are three valid possibilities: fun for the killer, fun for the victim, or fun for both. As a developer, which do you strive for? If you know that you can make the game fun for everyone, but are only making it fun for a select few (currently: the killer, with certain weapons), do you adjust your game to try to make it better for both parties?
Your sniper example is awful as well. If I get sniped in any FPS game, it is because there is an existing line of sight between us. I knew he was there and could react accordingly. If I get hit by 3 grenades moving at a velocity that leaves an insufficient amount of reaction time fired by a plane I could not possibly know is there, how is that in any way similar to this situation? It isn't.
Are these tactics creating an imbalance in the game? Are they somehow eliminating the other dogfighting in the game? If so, then perhaps there's a point. Though, I don't see a lack of dogfighting or other non-spam kills.
Right now there's a balanced variety of ways to kill other planes (I imagine bomber-spam accounts for a relatively low percentage of all kills). I think that's a good thing.
That you may have a preference of one or more kill methods over certain others only reinforces the point that each player has a personal preference and that variety is a good thing.
Some people, and I would guess a good number of the long-standing members of the community, desire a competitive game. Random situations (see: anything spam related) do not promote this type of gameplay. Every game that has a thriving competitive scene is, for the most part, not determined by random or skillless acts. There is a reason Counterstrike is one of the only competitive FPS games - if you can't aim you aren't going to do well. There is a reason starcraft is one of the best RTS games - all imbalances can be accounted for by either map makers or creative gameplay. This is not the case with altitude. I know Lamster desires a game that caters to both crowds. Your argument appears to be "some people like randomness, some people don't, so clearly we can't cater to the people who don't". My point from the beginning is that it is very possible to cater to both groups and you're talking from an excessively casual point of view.
Ferret
01-01-2010, 04:50 AM
Actually I didn't miss that point, I replied directly to that point with other examples from this game and other genres. Almost every game has a way to ambush or snipe from an unseen vantage point. You think being blind-sided is not fun, ok, but don't think that it's not fun for the guy doing the blind-siding!
The argument that an action that is fun for the killer, but not for the victim, reduces the overall fun of the game is flawed.
Are these tactics creating an imbalance in the game? Are they somehow eliminating the other dogfighting in the game? If so, then perhaps there's a point. Though, I don't see a lack of dogfighting or other non-spam kills.
Right now there's a balanced variety of ways to kill other planes (I imagine bomber-spam accounts for a relatively low percentage of all kills). I think that's a good thing.
That you may have a preference of one or more kill methods over certain others only reinforces the point that each player has a personal preference and that variety is a good thing.
How is blindsiding fun when it's so blindsided that you don't even see it coming? I don't even enjoy winning when I don't know how and why.
And you did miss the point, because guess what a sniper has to do to kill me in an fps? He has to aim at me. Move the cross hair over my head or else I can react and not die. He has to account for 3-dimensions of movement that I can make at any point. I think it's a pretty ridiculous analogy to make towards altitude.
Dog fighting does not happen if planes cannot cross choke points, or have to approach them from a safe direction, under cover, and then make maneuvers that amount to looking both ways before you cross the street when a car could still come at you from around a corner going 200mph and instantly kill you. This does not make an enjoyable video game.
Variety is good while it is balanced. "Ideal balance" would produce a uniform distribution of all 15 red perks. This is not seen in the game, anywhere, under any pretense. My preference is actually to play exclusively in servers where the screen size is the same as the maximum range of attack so that it's impossible to be spammed to death from off screen. It's the only way the ****ty balance of this game can even be tolerated any more.
The argument that an action that is fun for the killer, but not for the victim, reduces the overall fun of the game is flawed.
Are these tactics creating an imbalance in the game? Are they somehow eliminating the other dogfighting in the game? If so, then perhaps there's a point. Though, I don't see a lack of dogfighting or other non-spam kills.
Right now there's a balanced variety of ways to kill other planes (I imagine bomber-spam accounts for a relatively low percentage of all kills). I think that's a good thing.
That you may have a preference of one or more kill methods over certain others only reinforces the point that each player has a personal preference and that variety is a good thing.
How is blindsiding fun when it's so blindsided that you don't even see it coming? I don't even enjoy winning when I don't know how and why.
And you did miss the point, because guess what a sniper has to do to kill me in an fps? He has to aim at me. Move the cross hair over my head or else I can react and not die. He has to account for 3-dimensions of movement that I can make at any point. I think it's a pretty ridiculous analogy to make towards altitude.
Dog fighting does not happen if planes cannot cross choke points, or have to approach them from a safe direction, under cover, and then make maneuvers that amount to looking both ways before you cross the street when a car could still come at you from around a corner going 200mph and instantly kill you. This does not make an enjoyable video game.
Variety is good while it is balanced. "Ideal balance" would produce a uniform distribution of all 15 red perks. This is not seen in the game, anywhere, under any pretense. My preference is actually to play exclusively in servers where the screen size is the same as the maximum range of attack so that it's impossible to be spammed to death from off screen. It's the only way the ****ty balance of this game can even be tolerated any more.
ORYLY
01-01-2010, 05:21 AM
Some people, and I would guess a good number of the long-standing members of the community, desire a competitive game. Random situations (see: anything spam related) do not promote this type of gameplay. Every game that has a thriving competitive scene is, for the most part, not determined by random or skillless acts.Yes, randomness should never be the driving force in competition. But its presence doesn't necessarily detract from it. Reacting to and making allowance for unexpected situations is part of any strategy. There's still an interesting situation in the X% chance that someone dies to unavoidable blind spam. Will the spammed team be able to make up for the manpower disadvantage with powerups or terrain? Will team with the spammer be able to take advantage of the opening?
One reason why randomness is a Very Bad Thing in Counter-Strike is because of its round-based nature. A death changes a lot because you can't respawn. But when the sample size is longer (with respawning or doing best of 3/5), you're able to see how player skill deals with it. Playing a single round of Poker, for example, doesn't give you a chance to test any skill. But a game consists of a lot of rounds, so good players eventually come out ahead.
One reason why randomness is a Very Bad Thing in Counter-Strike is because of its round-based nature. A death changes a lot because you can't respawn. But when the sample size is longer (with respawning or doing best of 3/5), you're able to see how player skill deals with it. Playing a single round of Poker, for example, doesn't give you a chance to test any skill. But a game consists of a lot of rounds, so good players eventually come out ahead.
hurripilot
01-01-2010, 06:12 AM
Imho, all this anti-spam talk is bull****. Bomber spam is not broken. Any moron who's played this game for more than 3 hours knows what plane makes the spam, where the spam usually comes from, and some simple dodges. After that, it's all up to you to implement them. Whining about a plane randomly killing you is ridiculous. Seriously, how much do you guys suck? Do you really get wiped out by Bomber spam THAT much? I go entire WEEKS without dying to Bomber spam, even on chokepoint-crazy maps like Middleground.
For the love of god and all his heavenly angels, DEAL WITH IT. This game does not need to "fix" spam in order to achieve "balance". Nubs that die that much from spam also die from my HC shots and Miranda's shot-warp without ever seeing it coming. Most of them realize what's going on and work out a solution. The ones that don't come to the forums and whine like teenage girls on their periods, then ragequit the game. Good. Riddance. If you can't take five seconds out of your life to analyze a painfully simple playstyle and find the painfully simple solution to it, then good luck to you friend, you're gonna need it.
For the love of god and all his heavenly angels, DEAL WITH IT. This game does not need to "fix" spam in order to achieve "balance". Nubs that die that much from spam also die from my HC shots and Miranda's shot-warp without ever seeing it coming. Most of them realize what's going on and work out a solution. The ones that don't come to the forums and whine like teenage girls on their periods, then ragequit the game. Good. Riddance. If you can't take five seconds out of your life to analyze a painfully simple playstyle and find the painfully simple solution to it, then good luck to you friend, you're gonna need it.
Sarah Palin
01-01-2010, 06:23 AM
People who complain about Loopy..... feh.
Varonth, if you don't understand Doublefire you deserve to die to it often. You whine about its DPS but seemingly don't understand that EMP is where its true power lies.
Loopy is not the high powered fighter you think it is. Loopy's a support plane:
It provides cones of covering and suppressing fire.
It can "vulture" - swoop down on a battlefield and pick off wounded stragglers, then fly off quickly.
It can slightly wound enemies with relative impunity, able to fly off quickly and let a teammate finish the job.
It can spread fire or EMP across multiple enemies, rendering them hors de combat without killing them, which can allow a successful base hit.
Notice how Loopy excels at these roles while other planes cannot fit them (for example Miranda cannot lay down covering fire).
Many teams have lots of loopies because these support roles are USEFUL.
Here's what loopy CAN'T do well:
Defend territory
Snipe a faraway target
Run the bomb
Kill an enemy in less than a second
(many other things)
Loopies are the bread and butter of team support but without the special roles the other planes fill, an all loopy team would be screwed. I may rack up high ratios and kill counts in TBD but it's my miranda teammate who delivered all 4 bombs to the enemy base. So which plane is overpowered, loopy or miranda? Neither, we work together to win.
Complaining about loopy "spam" is like complaining about biplane "sniping." Spamming, aka support fire, is what Loopy was created to do. If you fly into situations of statistically likely support fire without proper protection you deserve to be hit, end of story.
I should also add that the #1 difference between loopy spam and bomber spam is that bomber spam can come from offscreen and kill you. Loopy spam that is coming from offscreen can literally not hurt you unless you fly your plane straight into it. At offscreen distances the tracking never works effectively. And once again, if you fly your plane right into loopy spam you deserve to die.
Varonth, if you don't understand Doublefire you deserve to die to it often. You whine about its DPS but seemingly don't understand that EMP is where its true power lies.
Loopy is not the high powered fighter you think it is. Loopy's a support plane:
It provides cones of covering and suppressing fire.
It can "vulture" - swoop down on a battlefield and pick off wounded stragglers, then fly off quickly.
It can slightly wound enemies with relative impunity, able to fly off quickly and let a teammate finish the job.
It can spread fire or EMP across multiple enemies, rendering them hors de combat without killing them, which can allow a successful base hit.
Notice how Loopy excels at these roles while other planes cannot fit them (for example Miranda cannot lay down covering fire).
Many teams have lots of loopies because these support roles are USEFUL.
Here's what loopy CAN'T do well:
Defend territory
Snipe a faraway target
Run the bomb
Kill an enemy in less than a second
(many other things)
Loopies are the bread and butter of team support but without the special roles the other planes fill, an all loopy team would be screwed. I may rack up high ratios and kill counts in TBD but it's my miranda teammate who delivered all 4 bombs to the enemy base. So which plane is overpowered, loopy or miranda? Neither, we work together to win.
Complaining about loopy "spam" is like complaining about biplane "sniping." Spamming, aka support fire, is what Loopy was created to do. If you fly into situations of statistically likely support fire without proper protection you deserve to be hit, end of story.
I should also add that the #1 difference between loopy spam and bomber spam is that bomber spam can come from offscreen and kill you. Loopy spam that is coming from offscreen can literally not hurt you unless you fly your plane straight into it. At offscreen distances the tracking never works effectively. And once again, if you fly your plane right into loopy spam you deserve to die.
JDR
01-01-2010, 07:33 AM
Imho, all this anti-spam talk is bull****. Bomber spam is not broken. Any moron who's played this game for more than 3 hours knows what plane makes the spam, where the spam usually comes from, and some simple dodges. After that, it's all up to you to implement them. Whining about a plane randomly killing you is ridiculous. Seriously, how much do you guys suck? Do you really get wiped out by Bomber spam THAT much? I go entire WEEKS without dying to Bomber spam, even on chokepoint-crazy maps like Middleground.
For the love of god and all his heavenly angels, DEAL WITH IT. This game does not need to "fix" spam in order to achieve "balance". Nubs that die that much from spam also die from my HC shots and Miranda's shot-warp without ever seeing it coming. Most of them realize what's going on and work out a solution. The ones that don't come to the forums and whine like teenage girls on their periods, then ragequit the game. Good. Riddance. If you can't take five seconds out of your life to analyze a painfully simple playstyle and find the painfully simple solution to it, then good luck to you friend, you're gonna need it.
::goodposting::
For the love of god and all his heavenly angels, DEAL WITH IT. This game does not need to "fix" spam in order to achieve "balance". Nubs that die that much from spam also die from my HC shots and Miranda's shot-warp without ever seeing it coming. Most of them realize what's going on and work out a solution. The ones that don't come to the forums and whine like teenage girls on their periods, then ragequit the game. Good. Riddance. If you can't take five seconds out of your life to analyze a painfully simple playstyle and find the painfully simple solution to it, then good luck to you friend, you're gonna need it.
::goodposting::
[FN]MONXY FIST
01-01-2010, 08:21 AM
Imho, all this anti-spam talk is bull****. Bomber spam is not broken. Any moron who's played this game for more than 3 hours knows what plane makes the spam, where the spam usually comes from, and some simple dodges. After that, it's all up to you to implement them. Whining about a plane randomly killing you is ridiculous. Seriously, how much do you guys suck? Do you really get wiped out by Bomber spam THAT much? I go entire WEEKS without dying to Bomber spam, even on chokepoint-crazy maps like Middleground.
For the love of god and all his heavenly angels, DEAL WITH IT. This game does not need to "fix" spam in order to achieve "balance". Nubs that die that much from spam also die from my HC shots and Miranda's shot-warp without ever seeing it coming. Most of them realize what's going on and work out a solution. The ones that don't come to the forums and whine like teenage girls on their periods, then ragequit the game. Good. Riddance. If you can't take five seconds out of your life to analyze a painfully simple playstyle and find the painfully simple solution to it, then good luck to you friend, you're gonna need it.
ferret and Snowsickle are not nubs. The fact of the matter people is MUCH better then you and pretty much everyone else, is saying spam is not a fun mechanic at all in the game. I to hardly ever die in a game due to straight up bomber spam however i routinely die because i was injured by bomber spam. The only way to counter spam is to sit behind a wall, i am sorry but i am not going to do that.
For the love of god and all his heavenly angels, DEAL WITH IT. This game does not need to "fix" spam in order to achieve "balance". Nubs that die that much from spam also die from my HC shots and Miranda's shot-warp without ever seeing it coming. Most of them realize what's going on and work out a solution. The ones that don't come to the forums and whine like teenage girls on their periods, then ragequit the game. Good. Riddance. If you can't take five seconds out of your life to analyze a painfully simple playstyle and find the painfully simple solution to it, then good luck to you friend, you're gonna need it.
ferret and Snowsickle are not nubs. The fact of the matter people is MUCH better then you and pretty much everyone else, is saying spam is not a fun mechanic at all in the game. I to hardly ever die in a game due to straight up bomber spam however i routinely die because i was injured by bomber spam. The only way to counter spam is to sit behind a wall, i am sorry but i am not going to do that.
TomBRowkaH
01-01-2010, 10:07 AM
I might be in the minority on this, but I think the bomber is kind of hilarious and fun to play as and against. Maybe this is because I've been brainwashed into assuming random bomber deaths are part of the game? I don't know, but I've just gotten really used to it, it doesn't both me at all when I die to bomber spam (which isn't even that often). Hell, half of my own kills are from "spamming" in one way or another.
Also, the bomber is a GREAT selling point for the game when newbies are starting. In my experience, 4/5 people who i've started on this game have had by far the most fun with bomber because I literally tell them "just circle behind this wall and shoot four grenades whenever you fly by each time," and they can get a ton of kills. So yeah, I see how that's seriously retarded, but they got a kick out of it at the time.
So in conclusion, I see how spam sucks and is bad for the game in theory. I'd just like to put my opinion in as a long-time player of altitude who has never had a problem with spam and in fact kind of enjoys it at times.
Also, the bomber is a GREAT selling point for the game when newbies are starting. In my experience, 4/5 people who i've started on this game have had by far the most fun with bomber because I literally tell them "just circle behind this wall and shoot four grenades whenever you fly by each time," and they can get a ton of kills. So yeah, I see how that's seriously retarded, but they got a kick out of it at the time.
So in conclusion, I see how spam sucks and is bad for the game in theory. I'd just like to put my opinion in as a long-time player of altitude who has never had a problem with spam and in fact kind of enjoys it at times.
ryebone
01-01-2010, 10:23 AM
The way I see it, the issue at play here is how responsible the attacker actually is for getting kills. On one end of the spectrum, you have the explodet: press f, press again when the rocket's near an enemy, reap the rewards. Remote mines work the same way. When you die to an explodet, there's no question that either they earned it, or your own idiocy caused it (in reference to regular mines). Either way, you can't complain. Biplane and miranda more or less fall into this category as well.
On the other hand, a bomber can/will get many of its kills simply by firing randomly and hoping they'll hit something offscreen. These are undeserved kills, because the bomber did NOT have a target in mind when shooting, and was simply hoping to get lucky. This the primary source of frustration with the bomber, not just because there's no warning that you're about to be raped in the face, but also because they don't deserve the kill at all.
I think someone might've mentioned this earlier, but I believe a good way to mitigate this problem is to limit the grenades' range to the edge of the screen, so that bombers are relatively restricted to killing only what they can see on the screen. This way, the bomber can keep its grenade-volleying style of play that makes it unique, without the lucky kills offscreen.
On the other hand, a bomber can/will get many of its kills simply by firing randomly and hoping they'll hit something offscreen. These are undeserved kills, because the bomber did NOT have a target in mind when shooting, and was simply hoping to get lucky. This the primary source of frustration with the bomber, not just because there's no warning that you're about to be raped in the face, but also because they don't deserve the kill at all.
I think someone might've mentioned this earlier, but I believe a good way to mitigate this problem is to limit the grenades' range to the edge of the screen, so that bombers are relatively restricted to killing only what they can see on the screen. This way, the bomber can keep its grenade-volleying style of play that makes it unique, without the lucky kills offscreen.
nesnl
01-01-2010, 10:40 AM
If you limited the bomber to not being able to shoot off-screen, then wouldn't you need to limit all planes that way? I agree that bombe spam is annoying, but I think for the most part, with map knowledge and general game knowledge, you can minimize bomber spam. I personally think that miranda/loopy/biplane spam is much worse. Bomber projectiles move the slowest out of all the projectiles in the game, so if there is a chance to move out of the way, then with bomber shooting you have your best chance.
Personally, when I play bomber, I don't spam all that much except if I happen to be flying past a common choke point. I think that if a person's play strategy revolves around circles one specific choke that it not only makes them a bad player, but it is easy to pick up on and then either kill them or avoid that choke. However, most planes spam in the same way that bomber spams. Biplanes shoot through chokes iwth no enemies in sight with both regular primary and with HC. Loopy's definitely spam chokes and Miranda might be almost as bad as Bomber in terms of people who play and use spam as their main strategy because the player can shoot (especially a bounce shot) and then reverse and then repeat the process.
I think that bomber gets an unfair assessment about it being the only problem when it comes to spamming. I am not saying I like spam in the game, nor am I saying it's fun to play against, but I think for the most part a spamming bomber is really not that much of a threat in the overall game sense. And I know a lot of people have mentioned FPS games as an example where spam supposedly doesn't exist. However, in competitive games of Quake, spamming rockets at entrances where an enemy "might" pop out is a strategy needed to win. I see this as part of the Altitude meta game currently. Some planes are better than others at using the map and common chokes to effectively suppress the enemy from using those chokes. If the game were to change to minimize these effects i think it would be for the better, but bomber is not the only problem. It is all the planes to varying degrees.
Personally, when I play bomber, I don't spam all that much except if I happen to be flying past a common choke point. I think that if a person's play strategy revolves around circles one specific choke that it not only makes them a bad player, but it is easy to pick up on and then either kill them or avoid that choke. However, most planes spam in the same way that bomber spams. Biplanes shoot through chokes iwth no enemies in sight with both regular primary and with HC. Loopy's definitely spam chokes and Miranda might be almost as bad as Bomber in terms of people who play and use spam as their main strategy because the player can shoot (especially a bounce shot) and then reverse and then repeat the process.
I think that bomber gets an unfair assessment about it being the only problem when it comes to spamming. I am not saying I like spam in the game, nor am I saying it's fun to play against, but I think for the most part a spamming bomber is really not that much of a threat in the overall game sense. And I know a lot of people have mentioned FPS games as an example where spam supposedly doesn't exist. However, in competitive games of Quake, spamming rockets at entrances where an enemy "might" pop out is a strategy needed to win. I see this as part of the Altitude meta game currently. Some planes are better than others at using the map and common chokes to effectively suppress the enemy from using those chokes. If the game were to change to minimize these effects i think it would be for the better, but bomber is not the only problem. It is all the planes to varying degrees.
Vi*
01-01-2010, 10:58 AM
Bomber spam can be countered, and is part of the game, and all you need to do is realize that if you try to go to the other half of the map you are screwed, and if you don't stick with your team you are screwed. Bombers and choke-point control promote team play and team strategies and, y'know, being with other planes.
But that is not why I like altitude. All that is new stuff. The game has changed quite a bit since I fell in love with it.
I miss when intimate dogfights were the norm. My plane vs your plane, not my plane vs wave of unbeatable spam any time I cross center looking for enemies. Something Snow and I have in common is that we'd rather be spending more time with our enemies than with our teammates. (Some vets seem to try to counter this by turning teammates into enemies.) We don't want to be a happy clump of like-coloured planes. We want to go shoot there plains.
I think grenades are not a fun weapon. I also think grenades are not the only problem. The view/scale is part of it, the player limits in servers are part of it, the map size and design is part of it, the lower plane health is part of it.
The only thing that brings joy to my Altitude experience nowadays is the Sky Fortress of Terror. And the SFoT does not use 'nades.
But that is not why I like altitude. All that is new stuff. The game has changed quite a bit since I fell in love with it.
I miss when intimate dogfights were the norm. My plane vs your plane, not my plane vs wave of unbeatable spam any time I cross center looking for enemies. Something Snow and I have in common is that we'd rather be spending more time with our enemies than with our teammates. (Some vets seem to try to counter this by turning teammates into enemies.) We don't want to be a happy clump of like-coloured planes. We want to go shoot there plains.
I think grenades are not a fun weapon. I also think grenades are not the only problem. The view/scale is part of it, the player limits in servers are part of it, the map size and design is part of it, the lower plane health is part of it.
The only thing that brings joy to my Altitude experience nowadays is the Sky Fortress of Terror. And the SFoT does not use 'nades.
ORYLY
01-01-2010, 11:06 AM
On the other hand, a bomber can/will get many of its kills simply by firing randomly and hoping they'll hit something offscreen. These are undeserved kills, because the bomber did NOT have a target in mind when shooting, and was simply hoping to get lucky. This the primary source of frustration with the bomber, not just because there's no warning that you're about to be raped in the face, but also because they don't deserve the kill at all.If a bomber gets majority of his kills from completely random spam, it's because the victims didn't do anything to minimize the chance of dying to the spam. Do we really care that noob spammers beat noob dogfighters every time?
When offscreen spam hits a decent player, it's either rare enough that it makes no difference in the bigger picture (but it really ticks people off) or the map is broken.
I think someone might've mentioned this earlier, but I believe a good way to mitigate this problem is to limit the grenades' range to the edge of the screen, so that bombers are relatively restricted to killing only what they can see on the screen. This way, the bomber can keep its grenade-volleying style of play that makes it unique, without the lucky kills offscreen.Yeah sure. If offscreen kills really aren't common, then this won't make a difference with normal bomber play.
MONXY FIST;29775']I to hardly ever die in a game due to straight up bomber spam however i routinely die because i was injured by bomber spam. The only way to counter spam is to sit behind a wall, i am sorry but i am not going to do that.If bomber spam is amazingly effective, then you run in on your team as well and counter spam their ass. The question is whether the game becomes crap at that point.
When offscreen spam hits a decent player, it's either rare enough that it makes no difference in the bigger picture (but it really ticks people off) or the map is broken.
I think someone might've mentioned this earlier, but I believe a good way to mitigate this problem is to limit the grenades' range to the edge of the screen, so that bombers are relatively restricted to killing only what they can see on the screen. This way, the bomber can keep its grenade-volleying style of play that makes it unique, without the lucky kills offscreen.Yeah sure. If offscreen kills really aren't common, then this won't make a difference with normal bomber play.
MONXY FIST;29775']I to hardly ever die in a game due to straight up bomber spam however i routinely die because i was injured by bomber spam. The only way to counter spam is to sit behind a wall, i am sorry but i am not going to do that.If bomber spam is amazingly effective, then you run in on your team as well and counter spam their ass. The question is whether the game becomes crap at that point.
Beagle
01-01-2010, 06:31 PM
http://www.forums.warscentral.com/uploads/profile/photo-3.png
Smushface
01-01-2010, 07:48 PM
I agree with maimer. Every plane spams chokepoints. Bombers just get the hate.
Varonth
01-01-2010, 08:54 PM
People who complain about Loopy..... feh.
Varonth, if you don't understand Doublefire you deserve to die to it often. You whine about its DPS but seemingly don't understand that EMP is where its true power lies.
Loopy is not the high powered fighter you think it is. Loopy's a support plane:
It provides cones of covering and suppressing fire.
It can "vulture" - swoop down on a battlefield and pick off wounded stragglers, then fly off quickly.
It can slightly wound enemies with relative impunity, able to fly off quickly and let a teammate finish the job.
It can spread fire or EMP across multiple enemies, rendering them hors de combat without killing them, which can allow a successful base hit.
Notice how Loopy excels at these roles while other planes cannot fit them (for example Miranda cannot lay down covering fire).
Many teams have lots of loopies because these support roles are USEFUL.
Here's what loopy CAN'T do well:
Defend territory
Snipe a faraway target
Run the bomb
Kill an enemy in less than a second
(many other things)
Loopies are the bread and butter of team support but without the special roles the other planes fill, an all loopy team would be screwed. I may rack up high ratios and kill counts in TBD but it's my miranda teammate who delivered all 4 bombs to the enemy base. So which plane is overpowered, loopy or miranda? Neither, we work together to win.
Complaining about loopy "spam" is like complaining about biplane "sniping." Spamming, aka support fire, is what Loopy was created to do. If you fly into situations of statistically likely support fire without proper protection you deserve to be hit, end of story.
I should also add that the #1 difference between loopy spam and bomber spam is that bomber spam can come from offscreen and kill you. Loopy spam that is coming from offscreen can literally not hurt you unless you fly your plane straight into it. At offscreen distances the tracking never works effectively. And once again, if you fly your plane right into loopy spam you deserve to die.
Then you should really have no problem with a bit lower damage for the loopy i.e. -33% dmg for doublefire and -25% dmg for singlefire.
Then it still could do:
It provides cones of covering and suppressing fire.
It can "vulture" - swoop down on a battlefield and pick off wounded stragglers, then fly off quickly.
It can slightly wound enemies with relative impunity, able to fly off quickly and let a teammate finish the job.
It can spread fire or EMP across multiple enemies, rendering them hors de combat without killing them, which can allow a successful base hit.
But it couldn't do:
It can take down any plane in a maximum of 1.25s, must of them quicker.
Varonth, if you don't understand Doublefire you deserve to die to it often. You whine about its DPS but seemingly don't understand that EMP is where its true power lies.
Loopy is not the high powered fighter you think it is. Loopy's a support plane:
It provides cones of covering and suppressing fire.
It can "vulture" - swoop down on a battlefield and pick off wounded stragglers, then fly off quickly.
It can slightly wound enemies with relative impunity, able to fly off quickly and let a teammate finish the job.
It can spread fire or EMP across multiple enemies, rendering them hors de combat without killing them, which can allow a successful base hit.
Notice how Loopy excels at these roles while other planes cannot fit them (for example Miranda cannot lay down covering fire).
Many teams have lots of loopies because these support roles are USEFUL.
Here's what loopy CAN'T do well:
Defend territory
Snipe a faraway target
Run the bomb
Kill an enemy in less than a second
(many other things)
Loopies are the bread and butter of team support but without the special roles the other planes fill, an all loopy team would be screwed. I may rack up high ratios and kill counts in TBD but it's my miranda teammate who delivered all 4 bombs to the enemy base. So which plane is overpowered, loopy or miranda? Neither, we work together to win.
Complaining about loopy "spam" is like complaining about biplane "sniping." Spamming, aka support fire, is what Loopy was created to do. If you fly into situations of statistically likely support fire without proper protection you deserve to be hit, end of story.
I should also add that the #1 difference between loopy spam and bomber spam is that bomber spam can come from offscreen and kill you. Loopy spam that is coming from offscreen can literally not hurt you unless you fly your plane straight into it. At offscreen distances the tracking never works effectively. And once again, if you fly your plane right into loopy spam you deserve to die.
Then you should really have no problem with a bit lower damage for the loopy i.e. -33% dmg for doublefire and -25% dmg for singlefire.
Then it still could do:
It provides cones of covering and suppressing fire.
It can "vulture" - swoop down on a battlefield and pick off wounded stragglers, then fly off quickly.
It can slightly wound enemies with relative impunity, able to fly off quickly and let a teammate finish the job.
It can spread fire or EMP across multiple enemies, rendering them hors de combat without killing them, which can allow a successful base hit.
But it couldn't do:
It can take down any plane in a maximum of 1.25s, must of them quicker.
Herodadotus
01-01-2010, 09:08 PM
People who complain about Loopy..... feh.
Varonth, if you don't understand Doublefire you deserve to die to it often. You whine about its DPS but seemingly don't understand that EMP is where its true power lies.
Loopy is not the high powered fighter you think it is. Loopy's a support plane:
It provides cones of covering and suppressing fire.
It can "vulture" - swoop down on a battlefield and pick off wounded stragglers, then fly off quickly.
It can slightly wound enemies with relative impunity, able to fly off quickly and let a teammate finish the job.
It can spread fire or EMP across multiple enemies, rendering them hors de combat without killing them, which can allow a successful base hit.
Notice how Loopy excels at these roles while other planes cannot fit them (for example Miranda cannot lay down covering fire).
Many teams have lots of loopies because these support roles are USEFUL.
Here's what loopy CAN'T do well:
Defend territory
Snipe a faraway target
Run the bomb
Kill an enemy in less than a second
(many other things)
Loopies are the bread and butter of team support but without the special roles the other planes fill, an all loopy team would be screwed. I may rack up high ratios and kill counts in TBD but it's my miranda teammate who delivered all 4 bombs to the enemy base. So which plane is overpowered, loopy or miranda? Neither, we work together to win.
Complaining about loopy "spam" is like complaining about biplane "sniping." Spamming, aka support fire, is what Loopy was created to do. If you fly into situations of statistically likely support fire without proper protection you deserve to be hit, end of story.
I should also add that the #1 difference between loopy spam and bomber spam is that bomber spam can come from offscreen and kill you. Loopy spam that is coming from offscreen can literally not hurt you unless you fly your plane straight into it. At offscreen distances the tracking never works effectively. And once again, if you fly your plane right into loopy spam you deserve to die.
Yeah, I agree with this. As a biplane, I hate it when I'm dogfighting and 5 loopys come out of nowhere to emp me for an easy kill. But, as a loopy, I find myself looking for stragglers and preoccupied planes, as I find them to be an easy target.
Also, I didn't have a problem with bomber spam until today, when in a ball server, we had one team that had all five planes in it, facing a team comprised of 9 bombers and 2 loopys. Needless to say, I, along with the other biplane, both mirandas, and explodet, spent our entire game dodging an unexpected amount of bomber spam. When a team has a large amount of bombers, they may not be able to score, but the other team is always stopped by the neverending flow of grenades and bombs.
I still don't really think bomber is overpowered, but it's low skill ceiling just allows players to pick it up quickly, and people with an entire team comprised of bombers can stop the flow of a game completely. [/rant]
Varonth, if you don't understand Doublefire you deserve to die to it often. You whine about its DPS but seemingly don't understand that EMP is where its true power lies.
Loopy is not the high powered fighter you think it is. Loopy's a support plane:
It provides cones of covering and suppressing fire.
It can "vulture" - swoop down on a battlefield and pick off wounded stragglers, then fly off quickly.
It can slightly wound enemies with relative impunity, able to fly off quickly and let a teammate finish the job.
It can spread fire or EMP across multiple enemies, rendering them hors de combat without killing them, which can allow a successful base hit.
Notice how Loopy excels at these roles while other planes cannot fit them (for example Miranda cannot lay down covering fire).
Many teams have lots of loopies because these support roles are USEFUL.
Here's what loopy CAN'T do well:
Defend territory
Snipe a faraway target
Run the bomb
Kill an enemy in less than a second
(many other things)
Loopies are the bread and butter of team support but without the special roles the other planes fill, an all loopy team would be screwed. I may rack up high ratios and kill counts in TBD but it's my miranda teammate who delivered all 4 bombs to the enemy base. So which plane is overpowered, loopy or miranda? Neither, we work together to win.
Complaining about loopy "spam" is like complaining about biplane "sniping." Spamming, aka support fire, is what Loopy was created to do. If you fly into situations of statistically likely support fire without proper protection you deserve to be hit, end of story.
I should also add that the #1 difference between loopy spam and bomber spam is that bomber spam can come from offscreen and kill you. Loopy spam that is coming from offscreen can literally not hurt you unless you fly your plane straight into it. At offscreen distances the tracking never works effectively. And once again, if you fly your plane right into loopy spam you deserve to die.
Yeah, I agree with this. As a biplane, I hate it when I'm dogfighting and 5 loopys come out of nowhere to emp me for an easy kill. But, as a loopy, I find myself looking for stragglers and preoccupied planes, as I find them to be an easy target.
Also, I didn't have a problem with bomber spam until today, when in a ball server, we had one team that had all five planes in it, facing a team comprised of 9 bombers and 2 loopys. Needless to say, I, along with the other biplane, both mirandas, and explodet, spent our entire game dodging an unexpected amount of bomber spam. When a team has a large amount of bombers, they may not be able to score, but the other team is always stopped by the neverending flow of grenades and bombs.
I still don't really think bomber is overpowered, but it's low skill ceiling just allows players to pick it up quickly, and people with an entire team comprised of bombers can stop the flow of a game completely. [/rant]
RockChurch
01-01-2010, 09:11 PM
Also, I didn't have a problem with bomber spam until today, when in a ball server, we had one team that had all five planes in it, facing a team comprised of 9 bombers and 2 loopys. Needless to say, I, along with the other biplane, both mirandas, and explodet, spent our entire game dodging an unexpected amount of bomber spam. When a team has a large amount of bombers, they may not be able to score, but the other team is always stopped by the neverending flow of grenades and bombs.
I still don't really think bomber is overpowered, but it's low skill ceiling just allows players to pick it up quickly, and people with an entire team comprised of bombers can stop the flow of a game completely. [/rant]
Which team won?
If it was theirs, then I'd say that's an effective tactic, and I imagine they had fun even if you didn't.
If your team won, I bet it was challenging and took a new strategy to overcome the hard defense.
I still don't really think bomber is overpowered, but it's low skill ceiling just allows players to pick it up quickly, and people with an entire team comprised of bombers can stop the flow of a game completely. [/rant]
Which team won?
If it was theirs, then I'd say that's an effective tactic, and I imagine they had fun even if you didn't.
If your team won, I bet it was challenging and took a new strategy to overcome the hard defense.
Herodadotus
01-01-2010, 09:20 PM
They won, but we finally figured out to break their defense by their third goal. It was fun, just irritating at the beginning. It was a good game at the end.
TomBRowkaH
01-01-2010, 09:36 PM
Haha that reminds me of the old fLb 4 whales style on middleground... what a pain in the ass that was!
mled
01-01-2010, 09:55 PM
http://www.forums.warscentral.com/uploads/profile/photo-3.png
YA this has turned into full out argument can we leave it at this?
its just a game and were all a part for it for better or worse
YA this has turned into full out argument can we leave it at this?
its just a game and were all a part for it for better or worse
nesnl
01-01-2010, 10:56 PM
Yeah, I agree with this. As a biplane, I hate it when I'm dogfighting and 5 loopys come out of nowhere to emp me for an easy kill. But, as a loopy, I find myself looking for stragglers and preoccupied planes, as I find them to be an easy target.
Also, I didn't have a problem with bomber spam until today, when in a ball server, we had one team that had all five planes in it, facing a team comprised of 9 bombers and 2 loopys. Needless to say, I, along with the other biplane, both mirandas, and explodet, spent our entire game dodging an unexpected amount of bomber spam. When a team has a large amount of bombers, they may not be able to score, but the other team is always stopped by the neverending flow of grenades and bombs.
I still don't really think bomber is overpowered, but it's low skill ceiling just allows players to pick it up quickly, and people with an entire team comprised of bombers can stop the flow of a game completely. [/rant]
The game wasn't really designed around having to fight an 11 plane team. A team of any combination of 11 planes is going to have an insane amount of spam no matter what they are. I say just look for smaller games. You say that you hate it when "5 loopys come and kill you" but in the games that are fun (ie 5v5) that would be the entire other team, so that outcome would be unlikely. So basically it sounds like your problem is not so much spam as it is game size.
Also, I didn't have a problem with bomber spam until today, when in a ball server, we had one team that had all five planes in it, facing a team comprised of 9 bombers and 2 loopys. Needless to say, I, along with the other biplane, both mirandas, and explodet, spent our entire game dodging an unexpected amount of bomber spam. When a team has a large amount of bombers, they may not be able to score, but the other team is always stopped by the neverending flow of grenades and bombs.
I still don't really think bomber is overpowered, but it's low skill ceiling just allows players to pick it up quickly, and people with an entire team comprised of bombers can stop the flow of a game completely. [/rant]
The game wasn't really designed around having to fight an 11 plane team. A team of any combination of 11 planes is going to have an insane amount of spam no matter what they are. I say just look for smaller games. You say that you hate it when "5 loopys come and kill you" but in the games that are fun (ie 5v5) that would be the entire other team, so that outcome would be unlikely. So basically it sounds like your problem is not so much spam as it is game size.
Herodadotus
01-02-2010, 12:14 AM
Yeah, but the loopy thing was an exaggeration. When a couple of loopys come out and emp you, it can sometimes seem like five. :D
Snowsickle
01-02-2010, 03:47 AM
YA this has turned into full out argument can we leave it at this?
its just a game and were all a part for it for better or worse
Debate is healthy for the development of any game. Karl and Lamster do a fantastic job, but I'm sure both appreciate feedback from their fans - both positive and negative.
A certain few individuals appear to be jumping on their high horses and offering "I don't feel it's that bad personally so you guys should all shut up and pretend to be content" which is honestly quite selfish in its own right. This thread, while definitely full of arguments, has been reasonable debate for the most part and I'm sure Lamster and Karl like to see what their players consider important issues.
its just a game and were all a part for it for better or worse
Debate is healthy for the development of any game. Karl and Lamster do a fantastic job, but I'm sure both appreciate feedback from their fans - both positive and negative.
A certain few individuals appear to be jumping on their high horses and offering "I don't feel it's that bad personally so you guys should all shut up and pretend to be content" which is honestly quite selfish in its own right. This thread, while definitely full of arguments, has been reasonable debate for the most part and I'm sure Lamster and Karl like to see what their players consider important issues.
Sarah Palin
01-02-2010, 05:34 AM
The way I see it, the issue at play here is how responsible the attacker actually is for getting kills. On one end of the spectrum, you have the explodet: press f, press again when the rocket's near an enemy, reap the rewards. Remote mines work the same way. When you die to an explodet, there's no question that either they earned it, or your own idiocy caused it (in reference to regular mines). Either way, you can't complain. Biplane and miranda more or less fall into this category as well.
Well Rye, this is a pretty good summary of the in-game prejudice.
High-damage, one-shot weapons such as Heavy Cannon, Remote Mine, and Trickster, are deemed to be "high skill ceiling." You will either hit (great damage) or miss (no damage).
Low-damage, many-shot weapons such as Double Fire, Suppressor, and to an extent Recoilless, are deemed to be "lower skill ceiling." You will get a spectrum of damage from many hits to few or no hits.
People who mainline the first kind of plane (type A) often look down on the other kind of plane (type B). As you said, "the issue at play here is how responsible the attacker actually is for getting kills." The Type A plane picks an enemy, homes in and snipes him with a few quick shots.
A loopy can't snipe an enemy from across the screen with a super-fast bullet, or detonate its weapon right on top of the enemy, or cleverly bounce a bullet into the enemy. Because a Loopy cannot do this, to the Type A mindset, a loopy is a skill less plane. If you're not sniping, then you're just spamming bullets, and spammers don't deserve to get kills.
It may interest you that as a Type B player I don't give a darn about kills. My weapon is not about killing, it's about shaping the battlefield. If I get a kill with Doublefire, that's a win. If I wound an enemy heavily enough that he retreats to base for the next 10 seconds, that's a win. If my cone of suppressing fire keeps an enemy out of a choke long enough for my team to respawn, that's a win. If I wound an enemy, he escapes but he's smoking enough for my biplane teammate to take him out with one HC shot, that's a win. If I charge into the enemy, die quickly while getting zero kills, but shoot off enough EMPs that the miranda following behind me can juke to the base and drop a bomb, that's a win.
I measure the skill of my plane in more than just kills or even kills+assists. I don't care how responsible I am for kills, I care how responsible I am for winning. :)
I'm not saying my philosophy is better or worse than yours. They complement each other. I am against the idea that there is only one way to play the game.
"Concentrated-fire" planes (Type A) and "Diffuse-fire" planes (Type B) need each other. Biplanes wouldn't get many kills if Loopies weren't there to support them, and Loopies wouldn't get many assists if Biplanes weren't there to snipe.
If all that was tldr, then here is the Sarah Palin Twitter version:
Planes were designed to be different, don't judge one plane by the playstyle of another.
Well Rye, this is a pretty good summary of the in-game prejudice.
High-damage, one-shot weapons such as Heavy Cannon, Remote Mine, and Trickster, are deemed to be "high skill ceiling." You will either hit (great damage) or miss (no damage).
Low-damage, many-shot weapons such as Double Fire, Suppressor, and to an extent Recoilless, are deemed to be "lower skill ceiling." You will get a spectrum of damage from many hits to few or no hits.
People who mainline the first kind of plane (type A) often look down on the other kind of plane (type B). As you said, "the issue at play here is how responsible the attacker actually is for getting kills." The Type A plane picks an enemy, homes in and snipes him with a few quick shots.
A loopy can't snipe an enemy from across the screen with a super-fast bullet, or detonate its weapon right on top of the enemy, or cleverly bounce a bullet into the enemy. Because a Loopy cannot do this, to the Type A mindset, a loopy is a skill less plane. If you're not sniping, then you're just spamming bullets, and spammers don't deserve to get kills.
It may interest you that as a Type B player I don't give a darn about kills. My weapon is not about killing, it's about shaping the battlefield. If I get a kill with Doublefire, that's a win. If I wound an enemy heavily enough that he retreats to base for the next 10 seconds, that's a win. If my cone of suppressing fire keeps an enemy out of a choke long enough for my team to respawn, that's a win. If I wound an enemy, he escapes but he's smoking enough for my biplane teammate to take him out with one HC shot, that's a win. If I charge into the enemy, die quickly while getting zero kills, but shoot off enough EMPs that the miranda following behind me can juke to the base and drop a bomb, that's a win.
I measure the skill of my plane in more than just kills or even kills+assists. I don't care how responsible I am for kills, I care how responsible I am for winning. :)
I'm not saying my philosophy is better or worse than yours. They complement each other. I am against the idea that there is only one way to play the game.
"Concentrated-fire" planes (Type A) and "Diffuse-fire" planes (Type B) need each other. Biplanes wouldn't get many kills if Loopies weren't there to support them, and Loopies wouldn't get many assists if Biplanes weren't there to snipe.
If all that was tldr, then here is the Sarah Palin Twitter version:
Planes were designed to be different, don't judge one plane by the playstyle of another.
Snowsickle
01-02-2010, 05:57 AM
Well Rye, this is a pretty good summary of the in-game prejudice.
High-damage, one-shot weapons such as Heavy Cannon, Remote Mine, and Trickster, are deemed to be "high skill ceiling." You will either hit (great damage) or miss (no damage).
Low-damage, many-shot weapons such as Double Fire, Suppressor, and to an extent Recoilless, are deemed to be "lower skill ceiling." You will get a spectrum of damage from many hits to few or no hits.
On the contrary, if I were to pick the highest skill ceiling weapon in the game I would probably have to go with the recoilless/dogfighter primary weapon. I feel like there is very little skill in heavy cannon, remote mine, thermo, flak for other reasons entirely.
My definition of spam has a lot more to do with the size of projectiles and the area covered by them in a short time. Grenades are very large, have an arcing trajectory which ends up helping greatly at mid to short range, and many can be fired at once. The biplane primary on the other hand, has the smallest projectile in the game, fires in a very straight line and fast enough that you aren't often going to hit more than one or two shots without aiming.
High damage "hit or miss" weapons are among the easiest to be successful with, in my opinion. To do the same damage with the biplane primary as you do with heavy cannon you have to hit 3-4 shots which is an infinitely more difficult task than landing one shot that's as wide as a plane. Explodet gets an exception since position of detonation factors in significantly.
High-damage, one-shot weapons such as Heavy Cannon, Remote Mine, and Trickster, are deemed to be "high skill ceiling." You will either hit (great damage) or miss (no damage).
Low-damage, many-shot weapons such as Double Fire, Suppressor, and to an extent Recoilless, are deemed to be "lower skill ceiling." You will get a spectrum of damage from many hits to few or no hits.
On the contrary, if I were to pick the highest skill ceiling weapon in the game I would probably have to go with the recoilless/dogfighter primary weapon. I feel like there is very little skill in heavy cannon, remote mine, thermo, flak for other reasons entirely.
My definition of spam has a lot more to do with the size of projectiles and the area covered by them in a short time. Grenades are very large, have an arcing trajectory which ends up helping greatly at mid to short range, and many can be fired at once. The biplane primary on the other hand, has the smallest projectile in the game, fires in a very straight line and fast enough that you aren't often going to hit more than one or two shots without aiming.
High damage "hit or miss" weapons are among the easiest to be successful with, in my opinion. To do the same damage with the biplane primary as you do with heavy cannon you have to hit 3-4 shots which is an infinitely more difficult task than landing one shot that's as wide as a plane. Explodet gets an exception since position of detonation factors in significantly.
Stormich
01-02-2010, 08:12 AM
I agree with most that has been said in this thread. Spam is just a thing that occurs in a game. The bomber spam might be broken (but like Ferret said he only got annoyed when 5 bombers were spamming. Remember when loopy trackers were all around? Same thing.) The only solution I see here is either give bomber higher damage more energy using grenades so they can fire 1-2 at a time and maybe as Snowsickle pointed out reduce the size of the grenades so its harder to make a direct hit.
Reach
01-03-2010, 02:33 AM
I think you can tell the difference between a noob bomber and a pro one- like seeing the difference between a spamming loopy or a skillful one.
It just so happens to be that those two classes, being the unlocked guest ones, are the first, fastest, and simplest to learn.
I personally think the randa is OP cause everyone who uses it is a god of some sort.
>.>
It just so happens to be that those two classes, being the unlocked guest ones, are the first, fastest, and simplest to learn.
I personally think the randa is OP cause everyone who uses it is a god of some sort.
>.>
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